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Farmers Deserve the Right to Repair Their Tractors

farms.com

121–130 of 270 posts

Re: Farmers Deserve the Right to Repair Their Tractors

#121

There is a lot of misinformation about this. At face value, articles like this imply you're not able or allowed to fix mechanical issues, how dare they! What they don't mention is that manufacturers protect their electronic gear i.e. the consoles inside the machine that use GPS to run a field, adjust the attachment acccording to various sensors etc. This is very sophisticated stuff, and farmers need and want this fun…

> This is very sophisticated stuff So what? A PC is very sophisticated as well but no matter which parts I put together, it works. You can abstract the sophisticated stuff away.. This is just a bad excuse IMHO

Yes, I agree, and this is IMHO a better way out of the conundrum these farmers face: install their own electronics with similar functionality.

Re: Farmers Deserve the Right to Repair Their Tractors

#122

I just want to throw my 2¢ out there, as a mid-20's who went to a high-rural-population high school, there's an entire new generation of farmers who have a) accepted that Deere's need constant/regular service calls, and b) don't care to learn how to fix it (or older equipment) themselves. At the end of the day farming is just a business same as any other, it's the same reason why a lot of trucking companies lease the…

Lots of people don't care about their right to vote but we should all freak out when it gets taken away from them.

Re: Farmers Deserve the Right to Repair Their Tractors

#123
post #69

I wonder why JD does not make a large simple tractor that is mostly mechanical and hydraulic using standard/common parts and sell them at a higher price? They could advertise them to be owner repairable to justify the higher price. It seems there is a demand.

In a properly-functioning market, it seems as though this would be an opportunity for a competitor. You have to wonder why this isn't happening.

If a competitor figures out how to build a tractor that is as good as the ones from John Deere then they probably can compete with John Deere directly--as in, "on their terms" with a locked down tractor that makes them more margin--rather than bother to sell unlocked tractors. The same issue happens with cell phones: users want control over their phones, but they also want good phones with good screens and good cameras. There are, in fact, phones you can buy that give you complete control, but they are the companies that have shit products and so are trying to use this as a differentiator to draw in a new market. If you are able to compete with the iPhone--like Samsung can, but almost no other manufacturer can (sometimes Google manages to pull it off with first party phones, but very few people buy those, so they are clearly missing something)--then you build a device as equally locked down as the iPhone and compete with it "on Apple's terms" as there is a nearly bottomless well of money that you can extract from users if you are willing to screw them and force them to participate in your closed ecosystem.

Essentially, you can't just look at the one product in isolation and think "this should exist from a competitor", as if anyone could easily make a company to go out and do it... you instead have to consider the ecosystem of companies and the numerous barriers to entry (such as patents and limited supply lines and the enormous R&D costs) and what the incentives in the market are, and it turns out that, if your product is one where the competition is already scarce--Apple + Samsung make up 80% of the mobile phone market, with the rest likely targeting people who don't have enough money to pay for high-end phones; there is a similar thing going on with tractors, with five companies controlling >70% of the market, and AFAIK mostly now selling locked down machines--you can't just expect to magically find a competitor pop up that is going to fill this particular interest. If you manage to circumnavigate all of the hurdles to build a phone that works as well as an Apple or a Samsung device, you are almost certainly going to join the oligopoly and lock your device down also, as the incentives are just too poor otherwise. The only fix for this is regulation and, to the extent to which regulation actually already exists here, legal precedent.

Re: Farmers Deserve the Right to Repair Their Tractors

#124
post #122

I just want to throw my 2¢ out there, as a mid-20's who went to a high-rural-population high school, there's an entire new generation of farmers who have a) accepted that Deere's need constant/regular service calls, and b) don't care to learn how to fix it (or older equipment) themselves. At the end of the day farming is just a business same as any other, it's the same reason why a lot of trucking companies lease the…

Lots of people don't care about their right to vote but we should all freak out when it gets taken away from them.

People don't get to just buy a different brand of government though, unlike tractors.

Re: Farmers Deserve the Right to Repair Their Tractors

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would not trust the legal power of a waiver between two non governmental entities. When the public opinion wants someone to pay, the government will go after whoever can pay. I would want a clear law that prevents the company from being liable.

>I would not trust the legal power of a waiver between two non governmental entities So you don't trust the courts to enforce a contract? That's basically what a liability waver is, a bog standard contract that amends a prior (often implied by legal convention or state law) contract between the manufacturer and the product owner. >When the public opinion wants someone to pay, the government will go after whoever can…

The effectiveness of a liability waiver is heavily dependent on the state it is being litigated in, as well as the precise wording of the contract and opinions of the people in the courts.

https://recmanagement.com/feature_print.php?fid=200611GC03

> FYI making one or both entities "governmental" doesn't do anything to change this.

I do not know what this means, but my point is that if one of the parties in the dispute is politically disliked, then they may not get a fair shake.

In the context of this discussion, I can see “not having to deal with risks of liability waivers” as a supporting reason for why a company would want to lock down their devices or prevent people from tinkering with them. Then they can simply tell anyone coming after them that their product was clearly not meant to be tampered with and so tampering with it removed them from any liability.

Re: Farmers Deserve the Right to Repair Their Tractors

#126
post #116
post #37

No-one wants to sell hardware any longer, it's not as profitable as providing it on a subscription (dare we say "rent") and forcing all support, maintenance and additions to go through your channels as part of the subscription package. Unfortunately this trend is everywhere now. It happened to servers, media, has started to happen to cars... but it's happened already to agricultural hardware. Super profitable if you…

> No-one wants to sell hardware any longer... Then they should stop selling hardware and start renting it; but they don't do that, as that signals an honest intention to the customer and I'm pretty sure comes with a bunch of legal restrictions, both obvious and subtle. Instead, they want all the money and lack of liability that comes from selling something outright to someone else, and yet they still somehow want to…

"Just say no." -Nancy Reagan

Re: Farmers Deserve the Right to Repair Their Tractors

#127

I just want to throw my 2¢ out there, as a mid-20's who went to a high-rural-population high school, there's an entire new generation of farmers who have a) accepted that Deere's need constant/regular service calls, and b) don't care to learn how to fix it (or older equipment) themselves. At the end of the day farming is just a business same as any other, it's the same reason why a lot of trucking companies lease the…

So... I think your right. Underlying a lot of trends eroding user/owner rights are practical benefits. This as true for ipods as it is for for tractors.

My grandfather had an old Massey, and several others for parts. It's easy to idealize this from afar (I do), but young farmers often don't want it.

That said, the individual preference and the systemic trend are two different things. The right to repair, is also the right to have a 3rd party repair. Competition, choice. At some point along the trend, it's about more than that. There comes a point where "who actually owns this farm" starts to be a question. JD might exercise the same power over farmers that Apple exercises over app developers. A my way or the highway world.

Re: Farmers Deserve the Right to Repair Their Tractors

#128

Farmers do not want to pay for anything. My dealings with people in the farming community is that completely devalue everything around as a négociation tactic. They do not want to pay anymore than they have to for anything. In general, I don't work for or with them anymore because of the horrible way I have been treated by them. (bit generalised, but I spend 10 years working in the community) JD is moving to a Tracto…

> They do not want to pay anymore than they have to for anything.

Farmers are also being squeezed by their customers - prices for farm produce have been steadily falling for over a century, see e.g. [0].

JD's commercial model requires both capital outlay in purchasing equipment, and committing to a maintenance contract that the farmer can't influence. So the farmer loses control of maintenance costs whilst also under pricing pressure for their produce.

I can't speak to your experience obviously, but farming for many is a (very) low margin business.

[0]: https://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/chart-gallery/gallery...

Re: Farmers Deserve the Right to Repair Their Tractors

#129

I just want to throw my 2¢ out there, as a mid-20's who went to a high-rural-population high school, there's an entire new generation of farmers who have a) accepted that Deere's need constant/regular service calls, and b) don't care to learn how to fix it (or older equipment) themselves. At the end of the day farming is just a business same as any other, it's the same reason why a lot of trucking companies lease the…

You must know my neighbour. He was running a Kubota for a year or two, but it didn't take him long to replace it with a Deere.

I have most of the major brands in my shed. I don't particularly care much about what colour I'm using. Purchases have been made based on cost, which has included some green equipment when a great auction find has been found.

My experience says that JD has the UX nailed. When you're spending 12 hour days in the seat, the little things do start to make a big difference. I am not sure it is fair to be dismissive of it as being a result of great branding. The equipment is meant to be used and the experience and comfort while using it can most definitely be worth a premium to many.

Re: Farmers Deserve the Right to Repair Their Tractors

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A similar thing is happening with EVs. Many car dealers don't make their money from selling cars, they make most of their money from being the only authorized repair shop for said car model. And to keep the warranty valid, you need to service the car at an authorized shop. EVs, by design, don't require as much maintenance or as often as ICE cars. This will result in a disruption in the existing chain at some point. W…

> And to keep the warranty valid, you need to service the car at an authorized shop. Magnusson-Moss repudiates this for US consumers. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson–Moss_Warranty_Act

Yea, same for many EU countries.

Also EVs require some specific knowledge and equipment random Mom & Pop shops won't have for a while. Just working with HVDC systems alone is a huge hassle.

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