Farmers Deserve the Right to Repair Their Tractors • Hacker News Board

Re: Farmers Deserve the Right to Repair Their Tractors

#21

Post by WalterBright » Mon, Jun 07, 2021, 9:43 AM UTC

CraigJPerry wrote: post #7

antibuddy wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand the incentive for people to innovate and make it accessible to anyone is often money. The criticism of capitalism is warranted, however the supposedly bad capitalist IP system is also the reason for innovation and cooperation.

Most of the interesting innovations happen on publicly funded research. Whether it’s your RNA vaccine https://investors.modernatx.com/news-releases/news-release-d... or your phones touch screen, or your siri voice assistant or your uber gps taxi

> Most of the interesting innovations happen on publicly funded research

Excluding airplanes, jet engines, rockets, transistors, git, etc.

Re: Farmers Deserve the Right to Repair Their Tractors

#22

Post by petewailes » Mon, Jun 07, 2021, 9:44 AM UTC

Background: grew up in farming communities, live in a farming community, almost everyone around us farms.

Repairable tractors would be a huge boon. I wish to anyone listening that Deere, New Holland, Valtra, Fendt and co would produce properly repairable, open heavy hardware.

Deere is the worst in this, but the rest of the industry isn't anywhere near as good as it should be.

There's a reason you see old Defenders, Fourtraks, Rangers, Hiluxes and their ilk around so much on farms. They're mechanically simple, which means you can repair them and keep them going basically indefinitely. Compare that to a modern Deere 7 series for example, and whilst the Deere is more capable, if something goes wrong, you're basically screwed. I've no problem with the hardware getting more advanced, but that same maintainability needs to be baked in.

The problem is, no-one seems interested in shaking things up there, and the manufacturers aren't in any hurry to change. They're a conservative bunch who don't need to, and for whom it's directly more profitable to make machines which can't be repaired by anyone other than themselves and people they authorise.

Re: Farmers Deserve the Right to Repair Their Tractors

#23

Post by WalterBright » Mon, Jun 07, 2021, 9:44 AM UTC

louis___ wrote: post #8

antibuddy wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand the incentive for people to innovate and make it accessible to anyone is often money. The criticism of capitalism is warranted, however the supposedly bad capitalist IP system is also the reason for innovation and cooperation.

This rethoric has been proven false in the software development ecosystem. Nowadays almost all new programming languages are open-source, and *nix OS softwares have won the cultural battle over Windows in the devops community. > the supposedly bad capitalist IP system is also the reason for innovation and cooperation For me this is as much a myth as the good old "the wealth trickles down from the rich to the poor"

There's nothing anti-free market about Open Source.

Re: Farmers Deserve the Right to Repair Their Tractors

#24

Post by edulix » Mon, Jun 07, 2021, 9:45 AM UTC

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #17

Glavnokoman wrote: post #10

In the end market should take of this. If repairability is a major concern for the farmers they would just eventually buy the tractors with less of a high-tech bells and whistles. And also cheaper I guess.

Pleasse stop rehashing free market platitudes without any thinking. Look at the actual manufacturers, realise that noone is producing simple tractors any more, where are they going to come from?

So farmers would buy in mass simple tractors, making the manufacturer that does it alone rich amasing a huge segment of the market.

But no manufacturer wants to do it. And no venture capital wants to finance such thing. Because.. I guess.. these evil capitalists just don't want to make more money.

Is that the argument? That capitalists don't want to make more money?

Re: Farmers Deserve the Right to Repair Their Tractors

#25

Post by WalterBright » Mon, Jun 07, 2021, 9:46 AM UTC

vimacs2 wrote: post #11

louis___ wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This rethoric has been proven false in the software development ecosystem. Nowadays almost all new programming languages are open-source, and *nix OS softwares have won the cultural battle over Windows in the devops community. > the supposedly bad capitalist IP system is also the reason for innovation and cooperation For me this is as much a myth as the good old "the wealth trickles down from the rich to the poor"

Not only is it a myth but also incredibly arrogant, as if the ten thousand years of advancements and innovation by humanity since the dawn of civilisation prior to the development of capitalism in Italian city states never happened.

The hockey stick innovation curve started at the time of the industrial revolution, thanks to free markets.

Re: Farmers Deserve the Right to Repair Their Tractors

#26

Post by majjam » Mon, Jun 07, 2021, 9:46 AM UTC

petewailes wrote: post #22

Background: grew up in farming communities, live in a farming community, almost everyone around us farms. Repairable tractors would be a huge boon. I wish to anyone listening that Deere, New Holland, Valtra, Fendt and co would produce properly repairable, open heavy hardware. Deere is the worst in this, but the rest of the industry isn't anywhere near as good as it should be. There's a reason you see old Defenders, F…

Probably a naive question, but arent new Kubota tractors more repairable than say, a John Deere? Or are they just as bad?

Re: Farmers Deserve the Right to Repair Their Tractors

#27

Post by WalterBright » Mon, Jun 07, 2021, 9:47 AM UTC

nspattak wrote: post #13

Glavnokoman wrote: post #10

In the end market should take of this. If repairability is a major concern for the farmers they would just eventually buy the tractors with less of a high-tech bells and whistles. And also cheaper I guess.

This is an oversimplification that overlooks at automotive engineering history (if not history in general). Are there 2T engines or Wankel engines available for people to choose?

Heavy regulation of the automotive industry is why I can't buy a new Dodge Coronet.

Re: Farmers Deserve the Right to Repair Their Tractors

#28

Post by MikeUt » Mon, Jun 07, 2021, 9:49 AM UTC

edulix wrote: post #24

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pleasse stop rehashing free market platitudes without any thinking. Look at the actual manufacturers, realise that noone is producing simple tractors any more, where are they going to come from?

So farmers would buy in mass simple tractors, making the manufacturer that does it alone rich amasing a huge segment of the market. But no manufacturer wants to do it. And no venture capital wants to finance such thing. Because.. I guess.. these evil capitalists just don't want to make more money. Is that the argument? That capitalists don't want to make more money?

From another comment: "Deere is the worst in this, but the rest of the industry isn't anywhere near as good as it should be."

So no, the argument isn't that they don't want to make money. The argument is that they do, and realize that tacitly colluding will make them more money than undercutting each-other.

Re: Farmers Deserve the Right to Repair Their Tractors

#29

Post by atoav » Mon, Jun 07, 2021, 9:50 AM UTC

sackerhews wrote: post #6

Making something that only you can repair can be quite a lucrative business. This documentary is quite interesting: McDonalds Ice Cream Machines Are Always Broken: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrDEtSlqJC4

Making something only you can repair lands you on my personal everlasting blacklist of shame (and I guess the everlasting blacklists of shame of others as well).

Re: Farmers Deserve the Right to Repair Their Tractors

#30

Post by xxs » Mon, Jun 07, 2021, 9:51 AM UTC

edulix wrote: post #24

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pleasse stop rehashing free market platitudes without any thinking. Look at the actual manufacturers, realise that noone is producing simple tractors any more, where are they going to come from?

So farmers would buy in mass simple tractors, making the manufacturer that does it alone rich amasing a huge segment of the market. But no manufacturer wants to do it. And no venture capital wants to finance such thing. Because.. I guess.. these evil capitalists just don't want to make more money. Is that the argument? That capitalists don't want to make more money?

Most of the time it's not possible to produce new equipment without patent licenses even if everything else came into places. Assuming a new honest player that won't collude...