Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Keep Your Identity Small (2009)

paulgraham.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

111–120 of 321 posts

Re: Keep Your Identity Small (2009)

#111

Post by lliamander »

travisjungroth wrote: post #58

The sentence that strikes me as the essence of the essay: "More generally, you can have a fruitful discussion about a topic only if it doesn't engage the identities of any of the participants." Is that true? I really don't think it is. I could definitely have a fruitful (as precise as that can be) conversation with a Christian about religion or a "proud Black man" about race in America. Or even learn a thing or two a…

The presence or absence of good faith in the person with whom you are engaged I think makes the biggest difference.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small (2009)

#112

Post by dnissley »

geraneum wrote: post #99

You might not always have control over what identities you’re attributed to. For example if you are an immigrant, based on your home country, you may have an identity assigned to you by the destination society even if it isn’t factual. You might ignore it and remind yourself not to care too much about it (try to keep your identity small) but when you have a harder time finding an apartment even when you’re qualified…

To be fair, that's a rather large topic. Not to mention one that PG wouldn't be terribly qualified to answer I don't think.

How do you go about your life knowing that some sizable portion of it identifies you in a way that affects you negatively?

In a minor way I've struggled with this myself over the past few years. Best advice I've come across is to use the stoic dichotomy of control guide me: Some things are in our control, other things are not. Focus on those things you can control. Pay no heed to those you can't. If something seems like a mix of both it can be further broken down into those two.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small (2009)

#113

Post by eyelidlessness »

int3 wrote: post #38
eyelidlessness wrote: post #17

I’m confounded by the advice to avoid conflict by restricting one’s identity. By all means, don’t conflate your preference with your identity. But this is an awful way to address people whose actual experienced identity is needlessly a source of conflict. I spent most of my life shielding myself from admitting I’m queer, and nearly all of it shielding myself from admitting I’m non-binary and admitting I’m autistic, u…

You can acknowledge your preferences without making them your identity, though. E.g. you can admit to yourself that you are attracted to a variety of genders without thinking of yourself as being queer.

No, I can’t. Thinking I could and trying to caused me a lot of pain. I am queer. It’s as much an immutable facet of who and what I am as my neurodivergence, or my right-handedness. It shapes me beyond preference in similar ways to those. Why shouldn’t it? If it makes my life better to recognize who I am, why discourage that? Is it harming you or anyone?

Re: Keep Your Identity Small (2009)

#114

Post by gabereiser »

Retric wrote: post #24
eyelidlessness wrote: post #17

I’m confounded by the advice to avoid conflict by restricting one’s identity. By all means, don’t conflate your preference with your identity. But this is an awful way to address people whose actual experienced identity is needlessly a source of conflict. I spent most of my life shielding myself from admitting I’m queer, and nearly all of it shielding myself from admitting I’m non-binary and admitting I’m autistic, u…

This isn’t about the big stuff. Queer, non-binary, autistic is a small fraction of your identity. Hell any major allergies should make the cut. It’s the small stuff like considering yourself a Pepsi drinker that causes needless conflict. People buying bandaids have preferences, but it’s not something you’re going to argue about on the internet in all caps.

This. Obviously Coke is superior but 'Retric is on point with this. You can agree to disagree and move on with your lives. Sometimes Pepsi is all you have. Accept it. Spend energy on more productive things.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small (2009)

#115

Post by phist_mcgee »

redis_mlc wrote: post #27
Flex247A wrote: post #7

I reached a similar conclusion after lurking on subreddits of opposite political leaning. I favored the views of one subreddit over another (naturally). Over time, I found that I was blindly believing the comments in my favored subreddit over the other one, only to find that the comments were false or citing unreliable sources. I saw this happen several times, until I stopped lurking on both of the subreddits. I gues…

For those who want a concrete example of this ... I watch material from mainly CNN, Sky Australia and NTD Media. Virtually every big story on CNN in the past 2 years has had some kind of retraction (ie. lying): - corona lab leak considered misinformation until a month ago - first impeachment (orchestrated/funded by Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, and Joe Biden) which failed due to lack of evidence/coverup of a bogus F…

Is this the same sky news that calls Covid the China Virus and employs known racists and xenophobes to prop up one side of the Australian political landscape?

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/feb/24/sky-n...

Re: Keep Your Identity Small (2009)

#116

Post by runawaybottle »

systemvoltage wrote: post #110
xwdv wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

God those were simpler times back then.

Totally agree. Politics has ripped the fabric of society. I vividly remember how political discourse was in 2009. It was nowhere near as toxic, fascist, rage-fueled, woke, and dangerous as it is now. What has been lost? Truth. We've stopped caring about seeking truth and instead have resorted to subscribing to mob-mentality. Equally applies to both sides. The mere act of listening to both sides is considered as "sile…

You are discounting the fact that 8 billion people are connected (nth-removed at worse) to the largest communication network ever. There are legitimately only large mobs at this point.

We’re fundamentally struggling with scale and there’s no two ways about it.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small (2009)

#117

Post by int3 »

geraneum wrote: post #99

You might not always have control over what identities you’re attributed to. For example if you are an immigrant, based on your home country, you may have an identity assigned to you by the destination society even if it isn’t factual. You might ignore it and remind yourself not to care too much about it (try to keep your identity small) but when you have a harder time finding an apartment even when you’re qualified…

You don't have to ignore these things. You can acknowledge that they are real and affect you personally, but keep your identity and opinions separate from that. It's the difference between "immigrants tend to have a hard time" vs "white people are trash", or giving preferential treatment to your fellow countryman at work because "it's us against the world".

Re: Keep Your Identity Small (2009)

#118

Post by nobodyandproud »

I really like the reasoning here, but a word of warning: It’s a lonely road and in some cases a life threatening one.

While I’m center-left, I've found it extremely important to be a social gadfly as I’ve become older.

Challenge the assumptions and things we hold sacred, because there are often disturbing contradictions and conclusions lurking; and we don’t really know much at all.

As the author implied, there isn’t a way to punch a hole through the emotional investment.

It brings out the absolute worst in otherwise extremely intelligent people. Absolutely visceral reactions.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small (2009)

#119

Post by IncRnd »

confidantlake wrote: post #100
IncRnd wrote: post #77

Politics are _meant_ to be understood by the common person, especially in the US. The Declaration of Independence and the Consitution were intended to be understood by regular people. This is so that there wouldn't be a political class, who believes the common person needs to be ruled. Too bad we have that political class, anyway, along with regular people who believe politics should be inaccessible to regular people…

The wealthy landowner leading the revolutionary army became king, erm I mean president, after winning the war. The guy who wrote the Declaration of Independence became ruler a short time after him. They could have decided against being rulers, but they didn't.

Your historical summary leaves out quite a bit of actual information in order to simplify and provide a one-sided explanation. Too bad I won't fall for arguing about your soundbites.

Re: Keep Your Identity Small (2009)

#120

Post by dnissley »

Retric wrote: post #24
eyelidlessness wrote: post #17

I’m confounded by the advice to avoid conflict by restricting one’s identity. By all means, don’t conflate your preference with your identity. But this is an awful way to address people whose actual experienced identity is needlessly a source of conflict. I spent most of my life shielding myself from admitting I’m queer, and nearly all of it shielding myself from admitting I’m non-binary and admitting I’m autistic, u…

This isn’t about the big stuff. Queer, non-binary, autistic is a small fraction of your identity. Hell any major allergies should make the cut. It’s the small stuff like considering yourself a Pepsi drinker that causes needless conflict. People buying bandaids have preferences, but it’s not something you’re going to argue about on the internet in all caps.

I disagree. Those things seem big when you first discover them -- there's really nice feeling that comes with finding them out. "Ohhh, I'm X, so that explains why I have preference Y". But some people try too hard, to hang onto the euphoria that came with that discovery. They identify with that experience, and center their lives around it, and group together with others who do the same. They are often threatened by others who identify in the same way, but have a very different experience or who choose not to wrap their lives around it. I think that's what's getting called out in this essay.
Post reply on HN