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English medical records are about to be given away. As GPs, we’re fighting back

theguardian.com

71–80 of 83 posts

Re: English medical records are about to be given away. As GPs, we’re fighting back

#71
post #7

The fact that GPs are acting as some kind of custodians for this data isn't it also the same problem? This data should belong to their owners: the patients.

There are quite a few problems with that in the case of medical records. Some of this information may be urgently needed at a time when the patient is not capable of giving informed consent for its disclosure or does not have it immediately available. Some of the information may be vital to the future healthcare of the patient and would cause serious harm to them if it were lost. And in more of a more morally grey ar…

> There are quite a few problems with that in the case of medical records.

Only if you have a paternalistic view

> Some of this information may be urgently needed at a time when the patient is not capable of giving informed consent for its disclosure or does not have it immediately available.

What if I accept the risk I may die due to bad luck/odd circumstances to still refuse the information being handled out by anyone but me?

> Some of the information may be vital to the future healthcare of the patient and would cause serious harm to them if it were lost.

Likewise, what if I accept future risks? I have more skin in the game from losing my records than an hospital losing them anyway.

> And in more of a more morally grey area, some information might be harmful to the patient if they had it.

Then what about I refuse having the information, in exchange of the information also being unavailable to anyone else?

Many people here seem to have the view "more information is good" but not collecting it in the first place seems better to me.

Hence I do no healthcare in the US, only in SE Asia where most services are available in English and Chinese anyway.

Re: English medical records are about to be given away. As GPs, we’re fighting back

#72
post #4

For anyone (like me) who is no longer resident in England, you can find your NHS number with [1], then use it (plus a UK VPN) to opt out here [2]. As I understand it, [2] covers hospital data etc, but not GP data, which is the recent data grab and the subject of the article. I have written to the GP I was last registered at to see if they still hold any data on me, and whether they were intending to share it without…

Slightly more complicated than that.

The National Opt-out [2] does not prevent NHS digital from accumulating your records in a central database (in pseudonymous form - not anonymous). It only prevents them from sharing your record with others - for now...

The type 1 opt-out with your GP should prevent your records from even being sent to NHS Digital at all. The difficulty with this one is that it's a paper form only and has to be handed to the GP by the 23rd, there is no web service to opt out of this.

NHS Digital have also hinted that they will be trying to remove the type 1 at some point in the future.

Re: English medical records are about to be given away. As GPs, we’re fighting back

#73
post #7

The fact that GPs are acting as some kind of custodians for this data isn't it also the same problem? This data should belong to their owners: the patients.

There are quite a few problems with that in the case of medical records. Some of this information may be urgently needed at a time when the patient is not capable of giving informed consent for its disclosure or does not have it immediately available. Some of the information may be vital to the future healthcare of the patient and would cause serious harm to them if it were lost. And in more of a more morally grey ar…

No

1) preauthorization directive 2) encrypted backups 3) no. The real reason is doctors are really scare of opening medical records and the multitude of clerical errors in them Copy pasting in the US is so rampant one has to wonder how much liability is dormant in the different EMRs

Re: English medical records are about to be given away. As GPs, we’re fighting back

#74
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is more or less how it works in Israel. The EMR is owned and controlled by the state. Four private HMOs compete (in the literal sense) to provide services as efficiently and high quality as possible, according to their government licenses. It marries the public sector ability to build giant-ass systems for its citizens, with the private sector's ability to compete. Moving here from Canada I'm beyond shocked how…

You're right, but less, rather than more. 1. 4 HMOs total, not hundreds. That's a big difference, it's still pretty centralized. 2. The HMOs actually compete on very little, mostly customer service. They are heavily regulated and have to provide services to a spec that's spelled out by the government, including pricing. 3. These 4 HMOs are mostly historic in origin; starting a new one would probably need to be initia…

I'd argue that all I really want them to compete on is customer service. All in all this sounds pretty perfect to me. We get quality care, but some element of competition. I've lived under three different types of systems - this seems by far the best.

Re: English medical records are about to be given away. As GPs, we’re fighting back

#75
post #63

Can someone actually explain what the actual flaw in the proposed anonymisation of the data is? This sounds a lot like people are in complete dismissal of the potential benefits of a countries worth of aggregated health data to research.

Firstly, to be strictly accurate, the data here will not be anonymous, only pseudonymous. But in any case, we are talking about a long list of often very specific observations for almost everyone included in the data set. The chances of even supposedly anonymised data with that much detail being subject to reidentification are quite high, and there are plenty of organisations that might be able to infer enough to do…

What’s the actual cost/benefit here?

Re: English medical records are about to be given away. As GPs, we’re fighting back

#76
post #7

The fact that GPs are acting as some kind of custodians for this data isn't it also the same problem? This data should belong to their owners: the patients.

There are quite a few problems with that in the case of medical records. Some of this information may be urgently needed at a time when the patient is not capable of giving informed consent for its disclosure or does not have it immediately available. Some of the information may be vital to the future healthcare of the patient and would cause serious harm to them if it were lost. And in more of a more morally grey ar…

I think transparancy is the answer. In Estonia, if someone's medical record is viewed, it is recorded irrevocably. If there is suspicion that this access was not authorised or out of reach, the state itself will prosecute if you don't want to.

Re: English medical records are about to be given away. As GPs, we’re fighting back

#78

My perception of the NHS is that it is currently swamped in paperwork. I'm not sure why we are paying highly qualified doctors to spend huge amounts of time filling in endless documents in triplicate. Does anyone know if this digitization will have any effect.

> Does anyone know if this digitization will have any effect.

The article isn't about digitisation. Medical records are already digitised.

> filling in endless documents in triplicate

Which documents do you think they're still filling out manually? Let alone in triplicate?

Re: English medical records are about to be given away. As GPs, we’re fighting back

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firstly, to be strictly accurate, the data here will not be anonymous, only pseudonymous. But in any case, we are talking about a long list of often very specific observations for almost everyone included in the data set. The chances of even supposedly anonymised data with that much detail being subject to reidentification are quite high, and there are plenty of organisations that might be able to infer enough to do…

What’s the actual cost/benefit here?

There is no way to know, because it's impossible to quantify either the expected costs or the expected benefits.

On the benefit side, there is simply no way to know what good things could come from giving the right person easier access to this data. Maybe the only thing between us and a cure for ten different types of cancer is a one-week number crunching exercise by the right university research group. Maybe we'll go twenty years and no big advances will result that wouldn't have happened anyway.

On the cost side, as ever with privacy, most of the real damage in the event of a breach isn't likely to be directly financial. What is the cost to a 20-year-old struggling with their identity if information about their sexual health leaks and betrays their situation to their friends and family before they want to be open about it?

How many jobs might be lost by women in their 30s or 40s because someone at the potential employer discovered they'd been having treatments that could be related to pregnancy or fertility in recent years and took steps to avoid hiring someone who might need maternity leave soon?

What might happen to your ability to get health or travel insurance ten or twenty years from now if you ask your doctor today about a symptom that is probably nothing but could be a sign of a serious condition? Or to your children's ability to get insurance in the future, if you ask about a symptom that could relate to a hereditary condition?

How many people, fearing the answer to these kinds of questions if their health records are shared, might not ask the doctor about something potentially important at all? How often will that conversation that never happens prove to have devastating consequences because a serious condition then went undiagnosed and untreated? A chilling effect on doctor consultations alone could easily cost many thousands of lives. Just look at the big drop in the number of urgent referrals for people with potential cancer symptoms since the COVID restrictions have meant relatively few people are seeing their GP in person.

The only thing we really know is that this is probably a one-way trip. Once Pandora's box is open, it is unlikely it will ever be closed again. And we're being asked (or not, apparently) to take that trip based on vague, hypothetical future benefits, without any reference to the potential dangers, even though there have been quite a few examples of confidentiality breaches arising from sharing this kind of data in the past.

I suppose a cynic might say the actual cost/benefit right now is therefore infinite, because in the absence of better arguments and data about the benefits, it's prudent to assume a division by zero.

Re: English medical records are about to be given away. As GPs, we’re fighting back

#80
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that's interesting. Going to the opt-out link (your-data-matters.service.nhs.uk), gives this: Sorry, you cannot see this page This might be because: * you're outside of the UK and this service is only available in the UK I guess people outside the UK aren't considered allowed to manage their data. :(

If you are outside the UK then you can download the PDF version of the form and email it to (enquiries@nhsdigital.nhs.uk) after completion. ( https://www.nhs.uk/your-nhs-data-matters/manage-your-choice/... )

Yeah, I emailed them too (yesterday).

No response back, at least not so far. :(

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