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Remove left turns for less dangerous city traffic

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Re: Remove left turns for less dangerous city traffic

#81

Post by orthoxerox »

alksjdalkj wrote: post #68
burlesona wrote: post #51

One of the best ways to eliminate left turns is to replace four way intersections with roundabouts. This has the advantage of working even where there isn’t a grid to facilitate the “3 right turns” strategy. For a great description of why this is so effective, see the recent freakonomics podcast: https://freakonomics.com/podcast/roundabouts/

I'm a little skeptical that it would be safer for pedestrians and bikes. Bikes need to merge with traffic already in the roundabout instead of simply going straight through an intersection, and pedestrians would need to always check for oncoming cars rather than being able to mostly rely on lights telling them when they can cross. But then most of my experience with roundabouts is with large, multilane roundabouts so…

Proper Dutch-style roundabouts have the path for cyclists that follows the sidewalk, not the car lane.

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Alternative_dutch_...

Multi-lane intersections on major roads should just have a left-turn lane with a separate signal phase.

Re: Remove left turns for less dangerous city traffic

#82

Post by tvphan »

burlesona wrote: post #56
tomhoward wrote: post #24

Here in Melbourne Australia, lots is being done to remove right turns (we drive on the left here) at the busiest intersections. Several "P turns" [1,2] have been introduced in the most congested areas, in which you need to go straight through the intersection, then wait to do a U-turn at a designated place, then turn left into the road you wanted to turn right into (or vice versa if you're coming from the other direc…

Thanks for sharing. Wow, that hook turn thing is weird! I can see how it works well once you get used to it, though.

If you ride a bike and have to make a turn, it’s a similar concept!

Re: Remove left turns for less dangerous city traffic

#83

Post by [deleted] »

loloquwowndueo wrote: post #17
jakubp wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am presenting a counterpoint to the claim in the article that "it's just 1 more block" in a real world scenario (under somewhat different condition though: non-grid street network). Do you think the phenomenon I described does not exist, or are you saying it's not relevant?

I’ve driven in places that forbid left turns and the impact is nowhere near what you say it is - your example appears very specific to your town where things seem particularly bad but also your phrasing (“punished” by traffic - guess what, if you’re driving, you are traffic) is not very objective for a rational, general counterpoint.

[deleted]

Re: Remove left turns for less dangerous city traffic

#84

Post by [deleted] »

burlesona wrote: post #51

One of the best ways to eliminate left turns is to replace four way intersections with roundabouts. This has the advantage of working even where there isn’t a grid to facilitate the “3 right turns” strategy. For a great description of why this is so effective, see the recent freakonomics podcast: https://freakonomics.com/podcast/roundabouts/

[deleted]

Re: Remove left turns for less dangerous city traffic

#85

Post by perlgeek »

IgorPartola wrote: post #73
burlesona wrote: post #51

One of the best ways to eliminate left turns is to replace four way intersections with roundabouts. This has the advantage of working even where there isn’t a grid to facilitate the “3 right turns” strategy. For a great description of why this is so effective, see the recent freakonomics podcast: https://freakonomics.com/podcast/roundabouts/

But people don’t know how to use them and just make it a free for all. Look no further than the Boston metro area for how this actually shakes out.

15 to 20 years ago when roundabouts were first introduced to where I live (southern Germany), people were pretty terrible at using them.

After about 5-10 years, people have gotten the hang of it, new drivers were properly educated in driving school, now they work fine.

You've got to have a little patience, and actually expose people to it, then it works out fine.

Re: Remove left turns for less dangerous city traffic

#86

Post by orthoxerox »

wongarsu wrote: post #26
jakubp wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my town you have largely 4 options: - walk - drive - take a bus/tram - bike Walking is too slow and cumbersome for most people (e.g. 6-8 km one way to work seems like too much to do every day), and impossible if you want to go shopping anywhere except on your way to work. Public transport is really slow and not as flexible as you want (many places without good connections, wait times 15-20 minutes, transit times 2…

Biking is not that susceptible to weather imho. When it rains you can wear a rain coat and rain trousers. When it's cold you can wear any outdoor jacket (gore tex is great even if maybe not healthy). When it snows you have to work a bit harder. When there is ice you can use tires with spikes for great grip. The worst is hot weather, since you can only shed so much clothing. An ebike helps here, but that reduces the h…

It still sucks if you have to look (and smell) presentable at work. Even if you bike at a leisurely pace you and your suit will be drenched if you bike to work in a rain coat and rain trousers.

Re: Remove left turns for less dangerous city traffic

#87

Post by Swizec »

toast0 wrote: post #80
burlesona wrote: post #51

One of the best ways to eliminate left turns is to replace four way intersections with roundabouts. This has the advantage of working even where there isn’t a grid to facilitate the “3 right turns” strategy. For a great description of why this is so effective, see the recent freakonomics podcast: https://freakonomics.com/podcast/roundabouts/

Roundabouts in the busy city center would be terrible. Where roundabouts fit best is in intersections with low demand, because they have low capacity, and there's no reasonable way to increase capacity. If it's the urban core busy city center where there are skyscrapers right up to the lot line, there's no room for a roundabout unless you're willing to make 'round a bumps' or carve some footprint out of the buildings…

Many roundabouts are multilane and the design in general has higher throughput than a typical intersection because drivers don’t need to stop. Traffic is always flowing.

You are right that they require a slightly bigger footprint.

https://www.acsengineers.com.au/2016/08/22/roundabouts-vs-tr...

The biggest roundabout I’ve personally driven was an intersection of 2 freeways and a major city throughfare. 5 lanes in the circle itself, all at speeds up to 90kph.

They’ve since added stoplights on it because people were being dumb and blowing through the whole thing at ridiculous speeds.

https://images.app.goo.gl/jpzgxUyQDoqe81y38

Re: Remove left turns for less dangerous city traffic

#88

Post by Zababa »

burlesona wrote: post #51

One of the best ways to eliminate left turns is to replace four way intersections with roundabouts. This has the advantage of working even where there isn’t a grid to facilitate the “3 right turns” strategy. For a great description of why this is so effective, see the recent freakonomics podcast: https://freakonomics.com/podcast/roundabouts/

As a French, it's really surprising to see how other people from other countries aren't used to roundabouts. I really like how diverse roundabouts are here. Some are arranged like gardens, some have flowers, some have sculptures, some have decorations made by the local school.

A funny anecdote: we used to go to Pontarlier from time to time because our grandparents had a house here. Every time we went, we saw that [1] awful roundabout. A few years ago, it was elected as the ugliest roundabout in France.

https://france3-regions.francetvinfo.fr/image/Zb2s5pOo3hJVEK...

(Edit: I've edited the link to point the correct roundabout. The previous link was https://sf1am.autojournal.fr/wp-content/uploads/sites/9/2018...)

Re: Remove left turns for less dangerous city traffic

#89

Post by brezina »

This article is so auto-centric, the author only considers the safety of people inside cars. Banning left turns in cities is a GREAT idea! The group of people most threatened by left turning cars are people walking. Control F for "pedestrian" or "walk" in this article. Nothing. American traffic engineering is so car-dominant, they fail to consider the most vulnerable road users. Pedestrian fatalities in the USA are at 30 year highs. Design for the healthy human living habitat we desperately need. Good human habitat requires safe walking infrastructure for humans of all ages, sizes & abilities.

Re: Remove left turns for less dangerous city traffic

#90

Post by ben-schaaf »

frosted-flakes wrote: post #71
dsomers wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not true. Go to Leiden Netherlands and see how economically vibrant a small city can become if it incentives efficient land use and limits traffic in city centre in favour of pedestrian paths an public transit.

The Unites States is not the Netherlands. If the downtown is already dying, banning cars will finish it off.

It certainly isn't any more, but before the 70s the Netherlands was looking at America when it came to modern infrastructure. Lots of cars, huge roads, pedestrian hostile intersections, massive amounts of and ridiculous highways (Just look at this crazy thing: https://mobile.twitter.com/notjustbikes/status/1176840020751...). It didn't kill the downtown in the Netherlands and they were in much the same position.
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