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G7: Rich nations back deal to tax multinationals

bbc.co.uk

721–730 of 931 posts

Re: G7: Rich nations back deal to tax multinationals

#721
If they really wanted to do it, they'd do a requirement for a company to show their books to IRS in a given country. They would call out fake charges to hide profits and demand back tax on that. It's all doable, but all those politicians are corrupt.

The whole piece reads as if it was bought by Facebook and Amazon for PR. It's going to be business as usual unfortunately.

I hope a party will show up and have guts to actually do something about those tax dodgers. To charge tax on these fake intellectual property arrangement you don't even need any laws changed. You only need a few officers that are not bent.

Re: G7: Rich nations back deal to tax multinationals

#722

I do wonder if we wouldn't be better off eliminating corporation tax entirely. The revenue of a corporation can, roughly, be: 1. Spent on goods or services from another company (including freelancers, contractors, etc.) 2. Spent on rent 3. Spent on capital purchases 4. Spent on wages 5. Spent on debt repayment or other forms of financing 6. Paid out in dividends 7. Spent on share buybacks 8. Invested in something els…

You’re ignoring that the companies can just keep lots of cash without distributing it to individuals in order to avoid taxation under your system. So for example the company can rent houses, cars, and airplanes for every employee to ensure there is not much money left to be taxed as income. On paper they look like corporate expenses but it’s really just a way to distribute money without it being taxable.

That would be imputed income passed on to employees.

Re: G7: Rich nations back deal to tax multinationals

#723
post #703

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the minimum tax rate. But I think the criterion for taxing profits should not be where the products are sold (for that, we have the sales tax or the VAT). The right criterion is where the value is created, which is usually the country where the most expenses/employees are. For example, if an Australian mining company digs up iron ore and sells it to China, it would seem unnatural to tax the company's pro…

Then the effect would be that all the taxes on facebook, google etc go to the US, not in the countries where they earn the money. The problem exist for example with internet advertising - the local agencies are all doing badly, advertising has moved to the internet - to google and facebook, so they receive most of the money that otherwise would be spent on local radio, print and tv advertisements, the local ad agenci…

The Facebook value is created in the countries they operate through the data they harvest. The work is done by people who use this service. Any Ad revenue that used targeting in the UK should be taxed in the UK. Simple as that. Unfortunately HMRC is only strong towards individuals. They wouldn't dare to go after company like Facebook. Even if they did, I am sure, given how little inspectors earn, they'd happily accept an offshore bearer account and quit.

Re: G7: Rich nations back deal to tax multinationals

#724
post #679

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need to ratify a treaty through reconciliation. There's no need for this to be done with a formal treaty. It could simply be each of the nations passing laws that do the same thing. If the Senate passes a law that changes the corporate tax rate to a certain amount, that is a budgetary measure that could absolutely be passed with reconciliation. Yes, this law wouldn't be a treaty, but it could have a similar…

> If the Senate passes a law that changes the corporate tax rate to a certain amount, that is a budgetary measure that could absolutely be passed with reconciliation. If it was revenue-neutral, sure. That is unlikely to be the case with changes to corporate tax rates. And even then, you are going to have a hard time getting even 50 votes.

That’s an incorrect description of the budget reconciliation process.

One of the budget reconciliation categories is explicitly for revenue, which means being revenue-neutral would make it harder to pass under reconciliation.

Being an aspect that explicitly impacts revenue makes it much easier to pass under the revenue reconciliation process. In fact, adjusting those rates would be a pretty straight-down-the-middle use of reconciliation.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconciliation_(United_State...

Re: G7: Rich nations back deal to tax multinationals

#726

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What?

The trick is to not own things (personally) but control them, e.g. if you want a yacht, you create a holding somewhere that buys the yacht and owns the yacht, and you can use it whenever you like. The holding then has contracts with other companies renting you out. And you work for 0 EUR for the holding and have no income. The holding also owns the house you live in. If you're a high risk person the company can be ow…

But these arrangements are clearly fake to avoid tax. There are already laws that see through it, just there is nobody that would dare to do anything about it. In the UK for example, for a long time people paid themselves in loans, to completely avoid tax. This was at first available only to the rich, HMRC knew about it and did nothing. Only when the "pleb" learned about it and started using it, they woke up and applied the tax retrospectively and called it "disguised remuneration". Many people lost everything they had, many committed suicides.

Why HMRC does not do the same with companies using fake charges to hide profits? Those companies got huge competitive advantage over local small companies who cannot afford such creative accounting. So many businesses didn't happen because of that.

I think it's time HMRC doubled down and destroyed this gravy train.

I am sure we have clever people that would build a new Facebook, that is ethical and pays taxes.

Re: G7: Rich nations back deal to tax multinationals

#727
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good. I didn't think such a global minimum was politically possible. There was recently an article on HN where the author claimed that high tax rates don't impact high net worth individuals because they have already made their money. It just makes it harder for others to join the club. Perhaps what we need is a global maximum wealth (rather than income) cap, as a multiple of global median per-capita wealth. Perhaps s…

This'll be hard to do when voting power in corporations is directly tied to paper wealth. Although one idea I was playing around with in my mind was around whether the tax could be made payable in public stock, provided that the voting rights are still assigned to the holder for a guaranteed minimum window (5 years?) that could extend pretty much indefinitely until the government chooses to close a position, e.g to p…

Or you can request their books, highlight fake arrangements that hide profits, slap tax on them. Job done. Easy. Don't even need to change any laws.

E.g. what is this IP charge by Cayman company that belongs to you as well? NON DEDUCTIBLE.

Re: G7: Rich nations back deal to tax multinationals

#728

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get a tax rebate for rent. Maybe it depends where you live. For a house, your net worth hasn't decreased by the cost of the house. A company wouldn't be able to deduct that. They can deduct for assets that depreciate.

A company cannot depreciate land, but they can depreciate the value of the buildings on top of it over a fixed period of time. So in addition to writing off the mortgage as an expense, you can also amortize it since the value of additions (not the land) decreases.

I'm not sure what you mean here. You can't write off a mortgage. You could write off interest, but not the value of the mortgage.

Real estate tends to appreciate in value, especially in cities. The company would have to get unlucky with their real estate to be able to write off a loss. Buildings don't usually depreciate.

They could allow their buildings to fall into a state of disrepair, hoping it would lower their value. But why would they? The can deduct the repairs. It's a legitimate expense.

Re: G7: Rich nations back deal to tax multinationals

#729

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK so... wikipedia has a pretty good summary. You're right. I was wrong. There is no IP licensing payment from the US entity to Ireland. IP licensing happens between 3rd party countries and Ireland. Irish tax law (to our great pride) gives IP licensing revenue tax exemption. It doesn't count as revenue for tax purposes. Once here, it can be transferred to a proper tax haven like Bermuda. Since its tax free, it doesn'…

> Once the cash is in Bermuda, the game is done. The Bermuda company can hold it, buy shares, etc. A Bermuda subsidiary can't repurchase shares in the US parent company without booking those profits in the US.

Then I suppose then I'm missing the last part of the trail. Enough tax study for me. No more.

Re: G7: Rich nations back deal to tax multinationals

#730
post #601

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The executive is allowed to make executive agreements without consent of congress.

They can make all the agreements they want, but it's not a legal treaty until 2/3 of the Senate agrees, and even then, this stuff requires that laws be passed -- many laws affecting jurisdiction, accounting standards, and the tax laws themselves. None of this can be done with an executive agreement.

> They can make all the agreements they want, but it's not a legal treaty until 2/3 of the Senate agrees

That's not true under international law. The confusing thing here is that "treaty" means different things under international law and US law.

Under international law, any legally binding agreement between two countries is a treaty.

Under US law, there are three types of agreements between the US and foreign states (or international organizations): treaties, congressional-executive agreements, and sole executive agreements. The first are approved by two-thirds vote in the Senate, the second by an ordinary Act of Congress, the third by the President acting alone (without Congressional involvement.) But all these three are considered equally to be treaties under international law. The distinction between the three is purely a US domestic law distinction. Article 46 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties says that domestic law does not determine the validity of treaties under international law unless the violation is manifest, which means that for most purposes the rest of the world can just ignore this US-internal distinction.

The authority to ratify treaties, in the international law sense of "ratify" and "treaties", solely belongs to the President (and the Secretary of State, and ambassadors, acting on the President's behalf). When the US constitution speaks of "ratifying" a treaty by the Senate, that is not ratification under international law. That's actually a domestic US legislative procedure which confusingly happens to have the same name.

> many laws affecting jurisdiction, accounting standards, and the tax laws themselves. None of this can be done with an executive agreement.

In practice this will likely be done by an ordinary Act of Congress (a "congressional-executive agreement") which only requires an ordinary (not two-thirds) vote in the Senate.

However, one needs to understand that ratifying a treaty under international law, and passing domestic legislation to implement it, are independent things. Under international law, the President or Secretary of State can legally submit the instrument of ratification for the treaty even if Congress hasn't passed any implementing legislation. International law doesn't care about implementation legislation, that's a domestic law concern. Now in practice the President or Secretary of State wouldn't do that, because that is not the traditional practice of the US. But other countries in the world do sometimes ratify treaties before the implementing legislation is passed. That generally happens in systems – whether Westminster democracies or non-democracies – in which the executive can be confident they'll get the implementing legislation passed.

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