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3,000 eggs abandoned after drone scares birds in California

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Re: 3,000 eggs abandoned after drone scares birds in California

#101

Post by cratermoon »

diggan wrote: post #75
cratermoon wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every stereotype of the off-leash dog owner on display here. Leash your dog. To do otherwise is selfish and rude.

> Every stereotype of the off-leash dog owner on display here. The comment I responded to called me "extremely inconsiderate", "hostile" and "violent" while I'm neither of those things (well, "inconsiderate" when it comes to how I handle my dogs seems to be up for debate at least). Are those the stereotypes you mean are visible in my comment? > Leash your dog. To do otherwise is selfish and rude. Thank you for sharin…

Are you familiar with the term "sea-lioning"?

Re: 3,000 eggs abandoned after drone scares birds in California

#102

Post by foobiekr »

totalZero wrote: post #29
diggan wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I frequently walk my dogs without leash. They follow my command, don't disturb other people or dogs unless both parties engage and generally I don't do anything that someone who has a leash wouldn't be doing. They also walk side-by-side with me when off-leash. This is very common in the city I live and surrounding area (Barcelona, Spain and Catalunya). Both me and others without leashes are indistinctive from people…

I'm not the GP but I'd like to comment on this because it's an interesting question. Some people are afraid of dogs. Others come from cultures where dogs are considered ritually unclean. And no stranger can verify just by a glance that your dogs will behave themselves. To take the third point to its logical extreme, imagine a town where police wear street clothes and openly carry firearms. You, a visitor, cannot dete…

I have a friend whose pet dog killed one of his other pets, is known to growl at children, and to me seems genuinely dangerous. Friend insists that the dog is a good boy and wouldn’t ever hurt anything. Friend insists dog loves children.

Friend is an intelligent, gregarious, kind hearted tech worker. He’s also completely delusional and in denial about his dangerous, demonstrably violent pit bull.

Friend routinely takes dog off leash in places where that is not permitted.

This is the problem.

Re: 3,000 eggs abandoned after drone scares birds in California

#103

Post by musingsole »

blamazon wrote: post #27
diggan wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I frequently walk my dogs without leash. They follow my command, don't disturb other people or dogs unless both parties engage and generally I don't do anything that someone who has a leash wouldn't be doing. They also walk side-by-side with me when off-leash. This is very common in the city I live and surrounding area (Barcelona, Spain and Catalunya). Both me and others without leashes are indistinctive from people…

> How is it inconsiderate if the dogs themselves are behaving? This is the problem right here. We have no idea whether your dogs are properly trained or not. There is no certification or regulation for having a dog off leash. We have no idea if they’re going to suddenly snap and, in the worst case scenario, viciously attack a baby, something they are biologically quite capable of. It is probably different in collecti…

> We have no idea whether your dogs are properly trained or not.

This is interesting to me because we have no such assurances about other humans either. But acting on the fear that a given human isn't adequately trained and restrained is labeled with every variant of ignorance.

Re: 3,000 eggs abandoned after drone scares birds in California

#104

Post by [deleted] »

smcl wrote: post #67
blamazon wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we’re already past cliches and stereotypes when talking of all dog owners who walk without a leash! I’m from USA. On the same page with you here about the collectivist vs individual freedom. As you noted it’s a tragedy of the commons—-because unquestioned individual freedom is prized so heavily in USA, some dog owners take advantage of it without appropriate precaution, and those people tend to do things like…

We actually do have such a tax! And I'm glad you reminded me because my residency status changed meaning that I now need to start paying this :D The tax is from the local municipality, and I think it’s for upkeep of some dog infrastructure - dedicated dog parks, bins with little bags. It’s not much

[deleted]

Re: 3,000 eggs abandoned after drone scares birds in California

#105

Post by smcl »

elvischidera wrote: post #82
smcl wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can I ask where you're from? This might be a cultural difference. I mentioned originally in another comment (then removed it as it looked a bit hostile) that this might be something more US-centric as it hasn't been a problem anywhere I've seen in Europe. I don't mean to bash the USA here, but I think there might be more "this is a free country and I can do what I want..." types over there who (if they have a dog) ar…

Not sure. I will just share my own personal experience. I live in Germany and I go to parks to freestyle with a soccer ball. My issue has always been dogs off lease interfering with my personal business. I have some balls with bite marks. I have been snubbed and sometimes gotten a rude response from owners. I have lived in the USA also. My observation generally is that people find it weird when you say you don't like…

Ah so that’s the sort of inconsiderate stuff I was saying I havent personally seen, but I guess it does exist here after all. So if there are people playing with something a dog might consider a “toy” (a frisbee, football etc) or having a picnic everyone I know would leash their dog unless they’re the type who are totally not into these things (some dogs are enamoured with their owners and just are not interested in the outside world). Mine wouldn’t bother anyone, he’s too interested in his own frisbee, but I do it as its just a good idea anyway

I’ve had a couple of friends who were afraid like you, where I would not bring my dog (a Vizsla - Quite energetic and very into people, so not a good idea to take him if I want those friends to feel comfortable). They started to come round to dogs generally after hanging out with friends that have smaller more docile breeds. Eventually they felt more comfortable and after shorter interactions with mine they got familiar with how the dog behaves, what motivates them, what they understand etc and slowly figure out that most are similar. So I’m not sure this is helpful, but that’s been my experience.

Re: 3,000 eggs abandoned after drone scares birds in California

#106

Post by cjensen »

I'm a birder, so some extra info...

On dogs, training and leashes only matter a little. The problem is birds immediately identify a dog as a dangerous predator. They are far less bothered by humans.

Birds pay more attention that we might realize. They identify potential threats from much farther away that we do. This leads to them being disturbed even when the casual rule-breaking dog walker thinks "I'm not doing anything wrong."

I'm extremely surprised so many birds abandoned their nests permanently. I would have expected only the closest nests to be abandoned.

Some people rely on their drones to tell them when they are in a no-fly zone. Terrible idea. Once at Hayward Regional Shoreline, I had to tell a guy that he was potentially creating a problem. I told him the two locations where endangered species can be found and that he should avoid -- and also that he was definitely within the limits of Hayward Regional Airport. He was both contrite and horrified that his drone didn't tell him.

They other issue is boundary-pushing. Literally. Give people a space, and many people will act like selfish toddlers and push the boundaries. Sunnyvale Baylands allows drones and it's a great space for them. There is a clearly marked fence they must not go beyond. So of course people constantly violate the fence. The fence is to a marshland with endangered species. Drones can fail, and a drone that falls into the marsh is not retrievable and then what happens to the toxins in the battery?

Re: 3,000 eggs abandoned after drone scares birds in California

#107

Post by SamoyedFurFluff »

musingsole wrote: post #103
blamazon wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How is it inconsiderate if the dogs themselves are behaving? This is the problem right here. We have no idea whether your dogs are properly trained or not. There is no certification or regulation for having a dog off leash. We have no idea if they’re going to suddenly snap and, in the worst case scenario, viciously attack a baby, something they are biologically quite capable of. It is probably different in collecti…

> We have no idea whether your dogs are properly trained or not. This is interesting to me because we have no such assurances about other humans either. But acting on the fear that a given human isn't adequately trained and restrained is labeled with every variant of ignorance.

We do ban humans from certain spaces and limit humans behaviors and ability to travel without restriction or direct watch though.

Re: 3,000 eggs abandoned after drone scares birds in California

#108

Post by nabilhat »

Causality1 wrote: post #11

Interesting. I wonder why the drone caused such a disproportionate response. The article doesn't address it but I doubt that if, say, an eagle had landed or started killing birds they would have abandoned so many eggs.

Eagle populations have recovered enough to become a problem for colony-nesting species. Murres on the North American west coast are one example [0].

Walking, dog, and bicycle restrictions are normal in wildlife refuges that prioritize being a wildlife refuge ahead of recreational use. Humans walking can be interpreted as a potential predation threat. Bicycling has a tall, loping aspect that checks off more of the "predator" boxes than walking. Dogs are always identified as an irrefutable predation threat by wildlife, on or off leash.

Drones peering into a bird nursury are likely to get a pretty similar reaction from birds as if it was a human nursury, minus the adults calling police or coming after you themselves. If parents decide there's a problem, they will abandon the nursury.

[0] https://www.birdnote.org/listen/shows/eagles-and-murres

Re: 3,000 eggs abandoned after drone scares birds in California

#109

Post by blamazon »

musingsole wrote: post #103
blamazon wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How is it inconsiderate if the dogs themselves are behaving? This is the problem right here. We have no idea whether your dogs are properly trained or not. There is no certification or regulation for having a dog off leash. We have no idea if they’re going to suddenly snap and, in the worst case scenario, viciously attack a baby, something they are biologically quite capable of. It is probably different in collecti…

> We have no idea whether your dogs are properly trained or not. This is interesting to me because we have no such assurances about other humans either. But acting on the fear that a given human isn't adequately trained and restrained is labeled with every variant of ignorance.

Such are the ethical pitfalls that we fall into when one species decides to domesticate and selectively breed another species for thousands of years. The subjugation is baked in already, literally in their DNA.

Re: 3,000 eggs abandoned after drone scares birds in California

#110

Post by diggan »

cratermoon wrote: post #101
diggan wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Every stereotype of the off-leash dog owner on display here. The comment I responded to called me "extremely inconsiderate", "hostile" and "violent" while I'm neither of those things (well, "inconsiderate" when it comes to how I handle my dogs seems to be up for debate at least). Are those the stereotypes you mean are visible in my comment? > Leash your dog. To do otherwise is selfish and rude. Thank you for sharin…

Are you familiar with the term "sea-lioning"?

I wasn't but now I am. It doesn't seem like something we should subject HN to, so if that's what you're doing you should probably stop sooner rather than later.
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