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3,000 eggs abandoned after drone scares birds in California

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Re: 3,000 eggs abandoned after drone scares birds in California

#41

Post by nanis »

diggan wrote: post #25
fnord77 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

people with dogs off-leash are extremely inconsiderate. they're also the type to get hostile and even violent if you say anything

I frequently walk my dogs without leash. They follow my command, don't disturb other people or dogs unless both parties engage and generally I don't do anything that someone who has a leash wouldn't be doing. They also walk side-by-side with me when off-leash. This is very common in the city I live and surrounding area (Barcelona, Spain and Catalunya). Both me and others without leashes are indistinctive from people…

> They follow my command

That's great, as it should be. However, the majority of dog owners I encounter are at the mercy of their dogs, they treat the dogs not as dogs but as humans and try to bargain with them. This is merely annoying when the dogs is a golden lab, but can be mortal when it is a "sweet" "rescue" pit.

You are right though, it doesn't matter if the dog is on a leash because people also get these 30ft (10m) leashes and all of a sudden, out of nowhere, someone's dog is trying to "just show affection" to a toddler.

So, the golden rule is not to get a dog if you can't be pack leader. A very bad proxy for a person being able to control a dog is the dog being on a "short leash"[1]. So, people go for that rule.

Then you get the 100 lb jogger (45 kg) who attaches a Doberman with a breakaway clip to their shorts.

[1]: https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/on+a+short+leash

Re: 3,000 eggs abandoned after drone scares birds in California

#42

Post by TomVDB »

diggan wrote: post #31
blamazon wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How is it inconsiderate if the dogs themselves are behaving? This is the problem right here. We have no idea whether your dogs are properly trained or not. There is no certification or regulation for having a dog off leash. We have no idea if they’re going to suddenly snap and, in the worst case scenario, viciously attack a baby, something they are biologically quite capable of. It is probably different in collecti…

> We have no idea whether your dogs are properly trained or not I think the assumption is, at least from mine and others like me, is that if your dog is off-leash, you can handle your dog off-leash. The same if you bring friends to some social event, you wouldn't bring them if you can't handle them and they can behave in public. I'm not afraid they are gonna attack me, although sometimes humans do attack other humans…

> The same if you bring friends to some social event, you wouldn't bring them if you can't handle them and they can behave in public.

No, this is not the same. You are legally responsible for the behavior of your dog.

Re: 3,000 eggs abandoned after drone scares birds in California

#43

Post by diggan »

patcon wrote: post #33
diggan wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I frequently walk my dogs without leash. They follow my command, don't disturb other people or dogs unless both parties engage and generally I don't do anything that someone who has a leash wouldn't be doing. They also walk side-by-side with me when off-leash. This is very common in the city I live and surrounding area (Barcelona, Spain and Catalunya). Both me and others without leashes are indistinctive from people…

Laws are about enforceability, not individual outcomes. Your doing what you're doing stabilizes a culture where there can be no consequences for anyone in this domain, because there's no clear line of enforcement. What's a low-wage enforcement officer expected to do in this context you advocate, where people "mind their own dog's abilities" and only get fined when some clear violation occurs? Are they supposed to fin…

To be fair, walking your dogs without a leash in the city of Barcelona is already illegal. You can walk past the police and they won't do anything though, unless your dog is not behaving, then they'll use the law to give you a fine for not having a leash.

So while it's setup like you say it is, in theory, what you think cannot happen is what happens in practice. Same with public drinking and other laws. The police usually look the other way unless you are abusing it somehow, being too drunk, loud or otherwise annoying. Sitting in the park with a bottle of wine is fine and won't end up with you getting a ticket, even though it's illegal. At worst they'll tell you to stop whatever you're doing, and if you follow their command, that's the end of the situation.

Maybe the big difference here between law officers in Spain (Barcelona at least) and wherever you're based, is how strict they actually enforce the laws. Here is maybe a bit laxer, which also fits in with the whole culture here, and it's represented in how law officers behave as well.

Re: 3,000 eggs abandoned after drone scares birds in California

#44

Post by mbrameld »

diggan wrote: post #25
fnord77 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

people with dogs off-leash are extremely inconsiderate. they're also the type to get hostile and even violent if you say anything

I frequently walk my dogs without leash. They follow my command, don't disturb other people or dogs unless both parties engage and generally I don't do anything that someone who has a leash wouldn't be doing. They also walk side-by-side with me when off-leash. This is very common in the city I live and surrounding area (Barcelona, Spain and Catalunya). Both me and others without leashes are indistinctive from people…

> Both me and others without leashes are indistinctive from people who are using leashes.

If this is true then you should have no problem putting a leash on them where it's required. By your own admission it wouldn't affect your activity.

Re: 3,000 eggs abandoned after drone scares birds in California

#45

Post by acomjean »

fnord77 wrote: post #23
mensetmanusman wrote: post #6

“ That’s contributed not only to increased drone activity, but also to more dogs and bicycles on the trails – all of which are prohibited. “We’ve seen a significant increase in dogs, particularly off-leash,” Loebl said. “That’s devastating for wildlife and this is prime nesting season. The dogs chase the birds and the birds abandon their nests.” Another problem is the development of multimillion-dollar homes on the h…

people with dogs off-leash are extremely inconsiderate. they're also the type to get hostile and even violent if you say anything

I live near a wildlife refuge. They allowed dogs on leash for many years. But fewer and fewer complied.

About 5 years ago after trying all sorts of signage they banned dogs altogether.

I feel bad for the small minority of dog owners who complied and kept their dogs on-leash

Re: 3,000 eggs abandoned after drone scares birds in California

#46

Post by bradleyjg »

admax88q wrote: post #36
patcon wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Laws are about enforceability, not individual outcomes. Your doing what you're doing stabilizes a culture where there can be no consequences for anyone in this domain, because there's no clear line of enforcement. What's a low-wage enforcement officer expected to do in this context you advocate, where people "mind their own dog's abilities" and only get fined when some clear violation occurs? Are they supposed to fin…

So basically the parties that are actually the problem are too hard to find, so we target everyone who fits into a similar category.

Yes, because we don’t have infinite enforcement resources we need to decide if we are going to prioritize type I errors or type II. Given the balance of harms minimizing type II errors (i.e. requiring leashes where they aren’t necessary) seems the better choice.

Re: 3,000 eggs abandoned after drone scares birds in California

#47

Post by ncallaway »

diggan wrote: post #31
blamazon wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How is it inconsiderate if the dogs themselves are behaving? This is the problem right here. We have no idea whether your dogs are properly trained or not. There is no certification or regulation for having a dog off leash. We have no idea if they’re going to suddenly snap and, in the worst case scenario, viciously attack a baby, something they are biologically quite capable of. It is probably different in collecti…

> We have no idea whether your dogs are properly trained or not I think the assumption is, at least from mine and others like me, is that if your dog is off-leash, you can handle your dog off-leash. The same if you bring friends to some social event, you wouldn't bring them if you can't handle them and they can behave in public. I'm not afraid they are gonna attack me, although sometimes humans do attack other humans…

> I think the assumption is, at least from mine and others like me, is that if your dog is off-leash, you can handle your dog off-leash.

Which may apply to 90% of off leash dogs. Unfortunately, the other 10% that have dogs that *cannot* be off leash, but do so anyway ruin it for you.

There are people that are afraid of dogs. They have no way of knowing, at a distance, whether your dogs will behave or run up to them. So when they see any dog off leash in a leash required area, they have to take a large detour to give the off leash dogs a wide enough berth.

If you’re in an area where leashes are required, and you have your dogs off leash (no matter how well trained they are) you are being extremely inconsiderate of the other people around you.

As a dog owner as well, I wish there were more acceptable off leash places in society for dogs, and I cherish the areas where off leash behavior is acceptable. But taking them off leash, when others have a fair expectation that they will be leashed is rude and inconsiderate.

Finally, in my personal experience the number of well trained off leash dogs (that can behave appropriately in a “leash required” setting), is nowhere near 90%. In fact, I would say the majority of off leash dogs I run across do not behave appropriately. It’s probably closer to 25% of the off leash dogs I run across that are trained well enough that they behave acceptably in on-leash settings

Re: 3,000 eggs abandoned after drone scares birds in California

#48

Post by smcl »

blamazon wrote: post #27
diggan wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I frequently walk my dogs without leash. They follow my command, don't disturb other people or dogs unless both parties engage and generally I don't do anything that someone who has a leash wouldn't be doing. They also walk side-by-side with me when off-leash. This is very common in the city I live and surrounding area (Barcelona, Spain and Catalunya). Both me and others without leashes are indistinctive from people…

> How is it inconsiderate if the dogs themselves are behaving? This is the problem right here. We have no idea whether your dogs are properly trained or not. There is no certification or regulation for having a dog off leash. We have no idea if they’re going to suddenly snap and, in the worst case scenario, viciously attack a baby, something they are biologically quite capable of. It is probably different in collecti…

Can I ask where you're from? This might be a cultural difference. I mentioned originally in another comment (then removed it as it looked a bit hostile) that this might be something more US-centric as it hasn't been a problem anywhere I've seen in Europe. I don't mean to bash the USA here, but I think there might be more "this is a free country and I can do what I want..." types over there who (if they have a dog) are more likely to not be considerate of others or respond aggressively when confronted about such behaviour. We'd be talking in cliches and stereotypes of course, but I imagine that sort of person is antisocial generally. I dunno, I'm just trying to rationalize the stark differences in our experiences because here dog owners are by and large extremely considerate.

Re: 3,000 eggs abandoned after drone scares birds in California

#49

Post by vimax »

diggan wrote: post #25
fnord77 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

people with dogs off-leash are extremely inconsiderate. they're also the type to get hostile and even violent if you say anything

I frequently walk my dogs without leash. They follow my command, don't disturb other people or dogs unless both parties engage and generally I don't do anything that someone who has a leash wouldn't be doing. They also walk side-by-side with me when off-leash. This is very common in the city I live and surrounding area (Barcelona, Spain and Catalunya). Both me and others without leashes are indistinctive from people…

To me the issue isn't generally having a dog off the leash, but specifically having a dog off the leash at a wildlife reserve where they may be running around disturbing the wildlife. It isn't a dog park.

Re: 3,000 eggs abandoned after drone scares birds in California

#50

Post by diggan »

mbrameld wrote: post #44
diggan wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I frequently walk my dogs without leash. They follow my command, don't disturb other people or dogs unless both parties engage and generally I don't do anything that someone who has a leash wouldn't be doing. They also walk side-by-side with me when off-leash. This is very common in the city I live and surrounding area (Barcelona, Spain and Catalunya). Both me and others without leashes are indistinctive from people…

> Both me and others without leashes are indistinctive from people who are using leashes. If this is true then you should have no problem putting a leash on them where it's required. By your own admission it wouldn't affect your activity.

Indeed, if I do end up in a situation where it's required, I'll do it, no questions asked. But for day-to-day walks, it's not so I don't, together with the rest of almost everyone we meet with dogs on our daily walks.
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