U.S. to give ransomware hacks similar priority as terrorism, official says • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. to give ransomware hacks similar priority as terrorism, official says

#551

Post by joe_the_user » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 9:12 PM UTC

runeks wrote: post #432

joe_the_user wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The debate is pretty much divided between people who say "improved security is the solution" and people who say "treating it as crime/terrorism/the-mafia is the solution". I'm in the improve the security camp. I think security can be improved if we impose good standards (meaning enforce inconvenient things like no backdoor updating apps, no critical infrastructure connected to the web). The reason "treating this like…

Your viewpoint is extreme. Saying the increased effort by law enforcement is “useless” is unfounded. Sure, it won’t solve the problem by itself, but it’s entirely possible it will help.

Saying the increased effort by law enforcement is “useless” is unfounded.

Note you are misquoting me: my comment: *"..."treating this like terrorism" is useless"

The right sort of the law enforcement action might be useful. But "treating this like terrorism" is just escalating penalties, threats and so-forth, which doesn't make sense for a very conventional property crime.

Re: U.S. to give ransomware hacks similar priority as terrorism, official says

#552

Post by restalis » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 9:17 PM UTC

mcguire wrote: post #550

restalis wrote: post #547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"And they can only build the aircraft they are certified to, using the same certified components, and the same certified tools." And that level of rigor is appropriate for the stakes that selling mass produced commercial aircraft implies. The discussion context was critical systems . But then you threw "word processors" in there. Why?

Because word processor documents have often been the vectors for attacks. And once an attack is inside your systems, there is nothing preventing the attack attached to a document from infecting and encrypting your machine or infecting your PLC and destroying your industrial equipment.

I'd say that the surface of attack here is the industrial equipment's link to general computing equipment (which it's expected to be less secure). The solution just can't be to secure the whole world of software that may somehow end up on general use computers. The point is, my remark is still valid, as a discussion on critical systems got mixed with clearly non-critical ones.

Re: U.S. to give ransomware hacks similar priority as terrorism, official says

#553

Post by mcguire » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 9:45 PM UTC

mlac wrote: post #404

panny wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The market doesn’t incentivize security until it is too late. That's why you have government and law to require it. The free market solving everything is a myth, and the USA is lucky that all the pipeline hackers wanted was money. Imagine if that was a nation state trying to immobilize the military in preparation for an invasion. No ransoms, instead bombs start falling while you are paralyzed.

Pulling this thread: say the government regulates it - what do they require? Regulations that say you need to be secure enough to not be hacked? That requirement changes daily. Baseline security standards? Sure. But what is the baseline? And how influenced by lobbyists is that baseline? You know the big security companies would love to have their product be a government requirement. Attackers do not have regulations.…

I'm not against government regulations when it is a good fit, either, but as long as it's cheaper to pay the ransom, the companies have incentives not to do anything about the threats.

Industrial civilization has been dealing with these kinds of tradeoffs for what, a couple hundred years now? Regulations seem to be the best option out there.

Re: U.S. to give ransomware hacks similar priority as terrorism, official says

#554

Post by mcguire » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 9:48 PM UTC

adventured wrote: post #301

panny wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The market doesn’t incentivize security until it is too late. That's why you have government and law to require it. The free market solving everything is a myth, and the USA is lucky that all the pipeline hackers wanted was money. Imagine if that was a nation state trying to immobilize the military in preparation for an invasion. No ransoms, instead bombs start falling while you are paralyzed.

You're imagining what is essentially an impossible scenario, because your setup is factually badly wrong. The ransomeware attack in question wasn't capable of shuttering the pipeline as a target, whether the hackers wanted money or not. That was a voluntary action by the company, a questionable precaution they chose to take. The US military isn't directly restrained by that pipeline. They have their own fuel supply l…

Two words: economic warfare.

Re: U.S. to give ransomware hacks similar priority as terrorism, official says

#555

Post by virtue3 » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 9:50 PM UTC

ixacto wrote: post #543

im3w1l wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's not do the criminals' jobs for them.

It is just pointing out the obvious that there exist ways to transfer money obtained via criminal actions that may not be in compliance with various nations tax laws. Talking about activities that are illegal in one's own jurisdiction without intent to break the law is not illegal... Would posting a paper by the german federal police on a practical home heroin manufacture be doing the criminals job? https://www.unodc…

And we're supposed to just shut down our infrastructure while that happens?

I don't think that's going to fix anything. I'm 100% sure companies will just pay quietly and not talk about it. Which makes this infinitely worse.

The government invests a crap ton in defense, this should be part of it.

Re: U.S. to give ransomware hacks similar priority as terrorism, official says

#556

Post by mcguire » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 9:53 PM UTC

runeks wrote: post #432

joe_the_user wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The debate is pretty much divided between people who say "improved security is the solution" and people who say "treating it as crime/terrorism/the-mafia is the solution". I'm in the improve the security camp. I think security can be improved if we impose good standards (meaning enforce inconvenient things like no backdoor updating apps, no critical infrastructure connected to the web). The reason "treating this like…

Your viewpoint is extreme. Saying the increased effort by law enforcement is “useless” is unfounded. Sure, it won’t solve the problem by itself, but it’s entirely possible it will help.

Several major countries have a history of not prosecuting computer crimes as long as those crimes don't affect local targets. In fact, the crime is the "day job" and training of people who participate in the whole "cyber war" thing during international shenanigans. (See South Korea, Georgia, Estonia, and the Ukraine.)

Re: U.S. to give ransomware hacks similar priority as terrorism, official says

#557

Post by jessaustin » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 10:44 PM UTC

chitowneats wrote: post #541

jessaustin wrote: post #538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for finally admitting your intentions. I don't see a similar suggestion anywhere ITT or TFA, but it all did seem a bit too coy. Physically, it would be possible to shut down e.g. Coinbase. Legally, that seems a stretch. Politically, with the particular investors they now have, you're trying to shut the barn door after the horse has joined the circus. Shutting down Coinbase, however, will have no effect on bitc…

> Shutting down Coinbase, however, will have no effect on bitcoin or the people who use it. You all are more than free to continue to associate with each other. As long as you're not breaking any preexisting federal laws (let's be honest: most of you are). It's the normie and Wall Street market we are targeting. Good luck maintaining the bull run, sweetheart.

It would be precious for you to suggest you might have some effect on "Wall Street". It's called "capitalism" because capital is in control; "democracy" would imply something else. Most humans break USA federal laws every day. That's the point of USA federal laws: if they couldn't be used to destroy any person at any time then the billionaires would come up with something else. At the same time, if rope is being sold, why wouldn't they sell it? Cops are sometimes surprised the first time they realize who they work for, but if you stick around you'll learn.

The most precious thought is that one might think to reign in authoritarian capitalists by attacking the one thing created in the last century that has a chance of actually undermining authoritarian capitalism. You don't actually think that, because ITT we see plenty of evidence you're on the other side of this conflict.

Re: U.S. to give ransomware hacks similar priority as terrorism, official says

#558

Post by chitowneats » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 10:56 PM UTC

jessaustin wrote: post #557

chitowneats wrote: post #541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Shutting down Coinbase, however, will have no effect on bitcoin or the people who use it. You all are more than free to continue to associate with each other. As long as you're not breaking any preexisting federal laws (let's be honest: most of you are). It's the normie and Wall Street market we are targeting. Good luck maintaining the bull run, sweetheart.

It would be precious for you to suggest you might have some effect on "Wall Street". It's called "capitalism" because capital is in control; "democracy" would imply something else. Most humans break USA federal laws every day. That's the point of USA federal laws: if they couldn't be used to destroy any person at any time then the billionaires would come up with something else. At the same time, if rope is being sold…

You’re well aware I’m not talking about opening your neighbor’s mail, or any other "crimes" that are still on the books but never prosecuted. When I refer to the federal crimes that are committed daily by crypto enthusiasts, I’m talking about blatant tax evasion that makes the Panama Papers look like child’s play. In a sane world, none of it would be possible. Soon enough.

Re: U.S. to give ransomware hacks similar priority as terrorism, official says

#559

Post by MomoXenosaga » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 10:58 PM UTC

echelon wrote: post #517

gilbetron wrote: post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only that, but we spend billions of dollars on defense to protect those airlines from bad actors. I mean when a person blows up a bomb in an airplane, our response isn't "build bomb-proof airplanes".

You're correct. Historically the choices were made to spend billions (and trillions) of dollars to invade countries harboring terrorists and use the situation to project power against other adversaries, advantageously control the price of oil, work trade deals, etc. I predict the same path will be taken with cybercrime. The U.S. defense apparatus won't be giving subsidies to non-tech companies to boost security. Rath…

If sheltering hackers means war countries might think twice of letting them operate from within their borders.

But there are other options: assassination for instance like Israel does with nuclear scientists.

Re: U.S. to give ransomware hacks similar priority as terrorism, official says

#560

Post by jessaustin » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 11:22 PM UTC

chitowneats wrote: post #558

jessaustin wrote: post #557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be precious for you to suggest you might have some effect on "Wall Street". It's called "capitalism" because capital is in control; "democracy" would imply something else. Most humans break USA federal laws every day. That's the point of USA federal laws: if they couldn't be used to destroy any person at any time then the billionaires would come up with something else. At the same time, if rope is being sold…

You’re well aware I’m not talking about opening your neighbor’s mail, or any other "crimes" that are still on the books but never prosecuted. When I refer to the federal crimes that are committed daily by crypto enthusiasts, I’m talking about blatant tax evasion that makes the Panama Papers look like child’s play. In a sane world, none of it would be possible. Soon enough.

Do you propose that Bezos should pay his taxes at the same rates my neighbors and I pay? That sounds good, but I don't see what it has to do with bitcoin. Do you allege that he is hiding income by not reporting it? It has been my impression that he prefers instead to hire people to write the tax law in his interests.

You keep focusing on the enforcement itself rather than the goals we hope to accomplish via enforcement. I infer that you have a special fascination for enforcement, but please understand that many people do not share this special fascination with you.