The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins • Hacker News Board

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#611

Post by isolli » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 8:56 AM UTC

bglazer wrote: post #323

tmp404 wrote: post #155

While this article is quite illuminating on the political side of the lab leak theory, on the evidence side it's mostly a rehash of some long-standing speculations. The only recent evidence it contains is the fact that 3 researchers from WIV sought hospital care back in autumn of 2019 with symptoms similar to COVID. However, this piece of evidence is hardly consequential without further details: - First, most common…

I'm quite astounded and confused at the sudden shift in discourse towards assuming that the lab leak theory must be true. It's not so much the theory itself that's surprising. Lab leak remains plausible but less probable then natural origins. The sudden shift is just baffling to me though. This huge new furor is due to anonymous CIA sources saying three people got sick? That's extremely tenuous evidence, as you state…

You're misreading the context. The furor comes from the fact that the lab leak hypothesis (distinct from the engineered virus hypothesis) was dismissed by fact checkers as a debunked conspiracy theory for a year based on nothing but assurances from the few scientists they interviewed.

This is just one example I could find quickly, but there are many more... https://twitter.com/JoePCunningham/status/139718591836522496...

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#612

Post by dalbasal » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 8:57 AM UTC

sbagel wrote: post #587

The amount of wildly delusional oppression complex in this thread is staggering, HN has really gone downhill. On the media 'not taking it seriously' - because there was no evidence whatsoever outside of conjecture and it was being pushed heavily by misinfo merchants. No grand conspiracy. Skepticism is a good default approach to take for info heavily pushed by such sources with no solid evidence. There were tons of ar…

Regardless of which hypothesis turns out to be true, there are fouls in either direction. Certainly overblown claims of both silencing and misinformation peddling.

The "human story," conflicts of interests and such, gets most of the attention... unfortunately. Some of those interests were/are personal. The most onerous interests seem to be narrative. One narrative or the other suits a grander political narrative, for a variety of reasons. That kind of stuff sucks us in, unfortunately.

There can be a fine line between skepticism and orthodoxy though. Skepticism defaults to ambiguity. I'm sure that ambiguity is the majority position, but "I don't know" isn't a position that gets much journalistic and political attention.

Media, both new and traditional, gravitates towards hard positions... poop slinging and human conflict stories.

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#613

Post by yarcob » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 8:57 AM UTC

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #576

yarcob wrote: post #524

One thing that's baffling to me is that I've not seen any discussion from scientists who actually know what they are talking about. All we get are articles who talk about the political side, and try to prove things by how certain actors behaved. Most of the actual science that all the articles cite are pop-sci simplifications at best. People talk about how parts from multiple viruses would be joined together etc, how…

That's because the theory is being pushed for political reasons, and most virologists think it's nonsense. The evidence for a lab leak is the same as it's ever been: nothing. There's no evidence the lab even had SARS-CoV-2 on hand before the pandemic, which is an absolute prerequisite for the lab leak theory to be possible, and all the evidence points to the lab not having had the virus. They regularly publish the ge…

> most virologists think it's nonsense

That's exactly the kind of unsubstantiated statements I see all the time (both from proponents of the lab leak theory and from opponents). I'd love to read the actual reasoning why virologists think that it's nonsense. I'm a bit sad that hacker is so full of political and over-simplified arguments for this topic, and the actual science is missing.

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#614

Post by isolli » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 8:59 AM UTC

thebigman433 wrote: post #484

bglazer wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm quite astounded and confused at the sudden shift in discourse towards assuming that the lab leak theory must be true. It's not so much the theory itself that's surprising. Lab leak remains plausible but less probable then natural origins. The sudden shift is just baffling to me though. This huge new furor is due to anonymous CIA sources saying three people got sick? That's extremely tenuous evidence, as you state…

> This seems more like people declaring victory because they're finally getting a hint of public support for their suspicions, rather than some truly damning evidence. I think this is the main thing driving these comments. Instead of being totally against the idea, these articles are providing a shred of hope (despite not having any new proof as far as I can tell) for the people who are locked in on the lab leak theo…

There was censorship in the form of calling the hypothesis of a lab leak (distinct from the hypothesis of an engineered virus) a debunked conspiracy theory. The fact that the theory is considered acceptable again is what people are claiming vindication for, and rightly so.

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#615

Post by croes » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 8:59 AM UTC

foobiekr wrote: post #503

40four wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guys, a bit of a tangent if I may? This is not normally my lane, but I really wish we could get over this term ‘wet market’. From a western point of view if you really think about it, it’s derogatory, and likely based in racial paranoia. We’ve all heard this term time and time again in the media. But after looking into it more, it’s not really accurate. Just call it a market. Or a farmers market as we call them in Am…

What kind of farmer’s markets have you been to with live animals in poor health being slaughtered in place?

Your comment confirms that it is a problematic term. I quote from the Oxford Dictionary: "wet market n. South-East Asian a market for the sale of fresh meat, fish, and produce." There is no mention of animals in poor condition and on-the-spot slaughtering. That's your prejeduce.

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#616

Post by GnarlyWhale » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 9:01 AM UTC

actuator wrote: post #151

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not how I remember the narrative. It was split in two. 1. Calling it "the china virus", as the former president was wont to do, was labelled racist/bigoted/nationalistic by those who did not simply agree with anything he said. 2. The claim that it originated in the Wuhan lab was viewed as unlikely, and there was (is) an alternative biological origin story which at the time seemed credible and more likely.

> Calling it "the china virus", as the former president was wont to do, was labelled racist/bigoted/nationalistic While the racist violence that happened was deplorable, it is entirely amusing to me that we are fine with calling it UK/Brazil/South African/Indian variant but not call it the China virus/flu. The same publications like Guardian which did not use the term China virus/flu because it was considered racist…

> While the racist violence that happened was deplorable, it is entirely amusing to me that we are fine with calling it UK/Brazil/South African/Indian variant but not call it the China virus/flu.

Why is this amusing? In N.A. there is currently (and pre-dating Covid-19) substantive differences in xenophobic response to China/Russia vs. the other countries mentioned. The former are the go to political boogiemen whereas the latter are either allies or patronizingly viewed.

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#617

Post by croes » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 9:03 AM UTC

ddeck wrote: post #554

40four wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guys, a bit of a tangent if I may? This is not normally my lane, but I really wish we could get over this term ‘wet market’. From a western point of view if you really think about it, it’s derogatory, and likely based in racial paranoia. We’ve all heard this term time and time again in the media. But after looking into it more, it’s not really accurate. Just call it a market. Or a farmers market as we call them in Am…

You wouldn't call your local farmers market a 'wet' market because it isn't. Wet market is the standard English term for a market that sells live animals, typically seafood. They are full of tanks and water filled buckets and polystyrene boxes etc., thus the "wet" adjective. There are 2 less than a mile from my home and I've never heard anyone use a different name for them. You'll find this term used by the HK (i.e.…

"Farmers' markets may be indoors or outdoors and typically consist of booths, tables or stands where farmers sell their produce, live animals and plants, and sometimes prepared foods and beverages. Farmers' markets exist in many countries worldwide and reflect the local culture and economy. "

"A wet market (also called a public market or a traditional market) is a marketplace selling fresh meat, fish, produce, and other perishable goods as distinguished from "dry markets" that sell durable goods such as fabric and electronics."

Sounds like a farmers market is a kind of wet market.

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#618

Post by glitchcrab » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 9:04 AM UTC

CorrectHorseBat wrote: post #581

frickenhamster wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China supported this in a psyop. Remember when they tried repeatedly to push the origin of the virus to Italy? I'm ethnically Chinese, so I'm in contact with a lot of mainlanders. The brainwashing is very effective. Even if most mainlanders know that their state media is bogus, and that Xi is a dictator, they'll take it deeply personally when you say anything that threatens the whole China # 1 narrative. All they had…

Or all the effort to not call it China Virus/Wuhan flu because that's racist and we don't name viruses after places anymore. Virus variants named after places on the other hand are apparently perfectly fine. So we don't have the Chinese virus but we do have British, Brazilian and Indian variants.

This is incorrect given the new WHO guidelines https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/01/covid-19-varia...

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#619

Post by philjohn » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 9:04 AM UTC

txru wrote: post #571

bglazer wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm quite astounded and confused at the sudden shift in discourse towards assuming that the lab leak theory must be true. It's not so much the theory itself that's surprising. Lab leak remains plausible but less probable then natural origins. The sudden shift is just baffling to me though. This huge new furor is due to anonymous CIA sources saying three people got sick? That's extremely tenuous evidence, as you state…

The furor about the lab leak theory isn't solely due to the 3 hospitalized workers, but also due to a well-sourced article [0] written by a editor of the Science section of the New York Times (as well as for Science and Nature), Nicholas Wade. Those two broke on the same day. Papers hadn't been covering the theory in depth since last summer. In my opinion the most damning part of the article is the section about the…

But isn't it true that furin cleavage adaptation is also found naturally in other betacoronaviruses?

It would seem to me that shows it's not the "smoking gun" many people believe it to be.

Re: The lab-leak theory: inside the fight to uncover Covid-19’s origins

#620

Post by croon » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 9:10 AM UTC

JesseMReeves wrote: post #478

um_ya wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this whole thing is a great example of why you don't ban alternative viewpoints, even if considered "conspiracy theories". Zerohedge was reporting this early on, and Twitter banned them for "misinformation".

That newspaper scene from Men in Black. I’ve relived it a number of times over the past year particularly. Local mainstream “fact checkers” have even called Covid-19 a “right-wing conspiracy theory” in early 2020.

> Local mainstream “fact checkers” have even called Covid-19 a “right-wing conspiracy theory” in early 2020.

Would love a citation or two. I remember the right-wing administration saying it would disappear as if by magic and Fox News saying "0 deaths" and that playing up covid was a left wing invention at least up to april or so.