We only ever talk about the third attack on Pearl Harbor • Hacker News Board

Re: We only ever talk about the third attack on Pearl Harbor

#241

Post by hef19898 » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 5:19 PM UTC

ericmay wrote: post #232

hef19898 wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ballistic missiles are things like ICBMs, there it doesn't matter if you miss by a couple of miles. Hypersonic missiles are fast enough to make ship movement a negligible factor, ship are slow . All other anti-ship missiles are guided. How bad that can end was shown in the Falkland war, the Royal Navy suffered quite a lot from Argentinian Exocets. Bought from France. A F-35 is what, 35 million dollar plus, excluding…

> Ballistic missiles are things like ICBMs, there it doesn't matter if you miss by a couple of miles. Hypersonic missiles are fast enough to make ship movement a negligible factor, ship are slow. The hypersonic missiles are like ICBMs though. They operate similarly and enter the atmosphere before coming back down. They’re not nuclear weapons where you can be close enough, they have to be accurate. A miss by 3 feet ju…

Having talked to former and active Navy guys, especially working on this stuff, I can tell you that ship don't dodge shit in a modern environment. They are simply to big and slow. If you can't get rid of the attack by counter-measures or shooting the missile down, the ship will be hit.

Re: We only ever talk about the third attack on Pearl Harbor

#242

Post by hef19898 » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 5:22 PM UTC

sofixa wrote: post #228

hef19898 wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except Sedan, none of these battles were as decisive, or at least not in tye same sense, as the battles won and lost by Napoleon. The Pacific war just really started after Midway, After Bangration the Nazis didn't surrender. The Low Lands and Denmark fell early in the war. And as you said, despite being turning points, these battles were part of modern industrial wars. They didn't end the war, nor did they force part…

> They didn't end the war, nor did they force parties to the negotiation table But they did. France, the low countries, Denmark, Norway all surrendered following said battles. The fight was kept on by allies of theirs, but the battles themselves were decisive with regards to the fate of the country that lost.

But neither battle was decisive for the second world war. And deciding a war is what decisive battles are about.

France fought on, the Free French forces were active on each front. Including the Eastern Front. Norway formed a government in exile, and continued the fight. Including the sabotage of the Nazis heavy water production. So no, these countries didn't surrender, as defeated countries did in the Napoleonic Wars.

Re: We only ever talk about the third attack on Pearl Harbor

#243

Post by ericmay » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 7:05 PM UTC

hef19898 wrote: post #241

ericmay wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ballistic missiles are things like ICBMs, there it doesn't matter if you miss by a couple of miles. Hypersonic missiles are fast enough to make ship movement a negligible factor, ship are slow. The hypersonic missiles are like ICBMs though. They operate similarly and enter the atmosphere before coming back down. They’re not nuclear weapons where you can be close enough, they have to be accurate. A miss by 3 feet ju…

Having talked to former and active Navy guys, especially working on this stuff, I can tell you that ship don't dodge shit in a modern environment. They are simply to big and slow. If you can't get rid of the attack by counter-measures or shooting the missile down, the ship will be hit.

Which makes sense, but the hypersonic missiles are not like regular missiles and are more like ICBMs. There's a small chance that if a ship takes evasive maneuvers the missile will miss because it also has to adjust targeting at the last second.

Re: We only ever talk about the third attack on Pearl Harbor

#244

Post by jabl » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 9:45 AM UTC

ericmay wrote: post #243

hef19898 wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having talked to former and active Navy guys, especially working on this stuff, I can tell you that ship don't dodge shit in a modern environment. They are simply to big and slow. If you can't get rid of the attack by counter-measures or shooting the missile down, the ship will be hit.

Which makes sense, but the hypersonic missiles are not like regular missiles and are more like ICBMs. There's a small chance that if a ship takes evasive maneuvers the missile will miss because it also has to adjust targeting at the last second.

I think everybody's clear this isn't WWII style evasive maneuvers with ships trying to evade torpedoes or bombers.

I guess what you're arguing for is that if friendly satellites or whatever reconnaissance assets detect a ballistic or hypersonic missile launch, the targeted ship (or realistically, all friendly ships in the area that could potentially be targets?) can change course, and in the 10 mins(?) it takes the missile to arrive the ship can be in quite another location than that estimated at missile launch time.

I would guess such missile systems would incorporate mid course guidance updates, but then again such comms could potentially be jammed.

Re: We only ever talk about the third attack on Pearl Harbor

#245

Post by Breza » Sun, Jun 06, 2021, 2:19 AM UTC

quercusa wrote: post #41

kevmo wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Check out the most expensive War Games in history -- the USA got annihilated, and there were a lot of hurt feelings. The Lt. Gen. quit in the middle of the games, because he kept winning and they kept changing the rules to force a USA victory. Red, commanded by retired Marine Corps Lieutenant General Paul K. Van Riper, adopted an asymmetric strategy, in particular, using old methods to evade Blue's sophisticated elec…

You'd think Blue would have prepared for small boat suicide attacks less than two years after the USS Cole attack. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Cole_bombing

It's really concerning that the Navy had serious accidental collisions years after that attack. It suggests that it's still alarmingly easy to get close to a destroyer without anyone noticing.