When six boys were shipwrecked for 15 months (2020) • Hacker News Board

Re: When six boys were shipwrecked for 15 months (2020)

#141

Post by dataviz1000 » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 11:38 AM UTC

beachy wrote: post #3

That's a wonderful story and and an uplifting rebuttal to Lord of the Flies. But to be fair, six Tongan boys were probably far hardier and well equipped than the typical British schoolboy of that time would have been. It seems they thought nothing of stealing a fishing boat and heading to sea, and they most likely had abundant life skills already - they basically relocated from life on one pacific island to another.…

Maybe the issue to consider isn't human behavior but rather leadership structure of the group of boys. With the boys in real life on the island who lead and how? There were moments of disagreement and they also had a system of administering justice and resolution. Did they follow the one boy who knew most about survival? That is a very different system of government than a voting democracy. The key is that when one broke his leg the rest provided for him. This goes all the way back to Plato observing city states in Ancient Greece attempts at creating institutions for mutual survival and defense.

Thirty years ago I saw recording of a heated interview with William Golding about the character in the book the boys should have chosen to lead. I can't remember if it was Ralph vs Piggy however I think Golding argued that it was Simon, the Christ like mystic, who would have provided salvation for all the boys if he was followed. Simon represented altruism in the book picking hard to reach berries for the smaller boys who couldn't reach. So in real life when a group of boys who are stranded on island who have religious values, altruism like in the case of caring for the one boy with a broken leg it is like they would have chosen Simon as Golding suggested in his interview to lead.

It might not be a rebuttal to the Lord of the Flies. It is a confirmation of what Golding said about the boys and their values.

Re: When six boys were shipwrecked for 15 months (2020)

#142

Post by bongoman37 » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 11:44 AM UTC

Its interesting everyone just keeps referring to the Catholic school they escaped from as a school. Knowing what we know about things like the Magdalene laundries and usual Catholic way of dealing with kids, they were likely escaping from a prison like and abusive situation. They would be more likely to be cooperative to not end up back where they started from. There is really no comparison to LOTF here where the kids were going back to a middle class existence if rescued.

Re: When six boys were shipwrecked for 15 months (2020)

#143

Post by esyir » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 12:07 PM UTC

croes wrote: post #110

TheOrange wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on whether you have social constructs in place which take priority over human behaviour. Remove all of this.. what happens.. humans will eventually go back to primal instincts

And one primal instinct is social bonding.

Which is also the primal instinct that allows for tribalism, which is really important when the other tribe is competing for a scarce resource.

Humans are social creatures, but not social with the entire world.

Re: When six boys were shipwrecked for 15 months (2020)

#144

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 12:09 PM UTC

nerdponx wrote: post #139

MomoXenosaga wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is an idea that after the bombs fall we all turn into raping and pillaging marauders. I have no idea why people find this idea comforting. In reality villages will be built, laws written and religions made up.

It can be both, no? Look at human history: lots of villages and religions, also lots of raping and pillaging.

We tend to record the raping and pillaging because those are the times of disruption. I'm not a historian, but I can imagine that there are long stretches of history that are relatively conflict-free for most of the world, but such times are not really that interesting so no one tells stories about them.

Re: When six boys were shipwrecked for 15 months (2020)

#145

Post by NateEag » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 12:37 PM UTC

XorNot wrote: post #37

anotherman554 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lord of the flies was written shortly after world war 2, which also really happened... I don't take it seriously as a story of what would really happen if boys ended up on an island, but humans killing each other for dumb reasons is not the stuff of fantasy.

No, but the why is. It's worthwhile being very careful taking fiction books as a depiction of how peoples minds work, because they're just plainly not - they're a depiction of how a very small subset (authors who publish books) think peoples minds work.

Smaller than that - each author's mind is unique.

Any piece of fiction should be considered on its own for whether its characters are plausible and consistent.

Re: When six boys were shipwrecked for 15 months (2020)

#146

Post by bluGill » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 12:41 PM UTC

dr_dshiv wrote: post #125

MomoXenosaga wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is an idea that after the bombs fall we all turn into raping and pillaging marauders. I have no idea why people find this idea comforting. In reality villages will be built, laws written and religions made up.

These villages better build defenses against the marauders or all is for naught. And of course, the best defense is a good offense. And... Fast forward to the presently peaceful times of mutually assured destruction!

That is a point of a village as opposed to living in separate farmsteads. (there are other points to villages, but putting a group of people together is an automatic form of defense)

Re: When six boys were shipwrecked for 15 months (2020)

#147

Post by NateEag » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 12:43 PM UTC

jfk13 wrote: post #140

morsch wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only photo on the page is of the slaver that sealed the island's fate. Sad.

It's wiki pedia. Maybe you could contribute something to improve it?

I doubt OP has photos of the island's earlier inhabitants.

Re: When six boys were shipwrecked for 15 months (2020)

#148

Post by dalbasal » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 12:46 PM UTC

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #144

nerdponx wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can be both, no? Look at human history: lots of villages and religions, also lots of raping and pillaging.

We tend to record the raping and pillaging because those are the times of disruption. I'm not a historian, but I can imagine that there are long stretches of history that are relatively conflict-free for most of the world, but such times are not really that interesting so no one tells stories about them.

At least in the enlightenment period, tend to come from political philosophy rather than history... though the two are closely related in this period. Notably, Hobbes and his "state of nature" concept.

Philosophy of this period (also Locke, Marx, etc) tended to speculate about the past using reason, rather than empirically. A lot of their ideas have been passed down to us.

Hobbes' saw life in the "natural" state "solitary, poore, nasty, brutish, and short." Eventually government arises, using its monopoly of violence to end day-to-day violence, cheating and such.

I don't think the original writers are compelling anymore, but they are hard to shake entirely. Memes die hard.

In any case, I think the reality of people at all times is that cooperation is a fundamental. There are no societies without cooperation, some form of solidarity, love, etc. We could have never survived without it. Violence is also common in history, but we don't need it to survive. We also know that primates, dogs and other creatures have demonstrably empathetic behaviours, a sense of fairness and such.

As I implied at the start, I think the mistake is literal fundamentalism. Human behaviour can't be logically derived from a fundamental nature.

Re: When six boys were shipwrecked for 15 months (2020)

#149

Post by filleduchaos » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 12:50 PM UTC

beachy wrote: post #137

filleduchaos wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious about what the pointless pedantry is in drawing a distinction between "stupid" and "morally abhorrent".

Those were not the words you used, and (continuing the pointless arguments about words), "morally abhorrent" does not mean the same as distasteful, at least to most english speakers.

The (very clear, to me at least) point was that calling war "dumb" because it is unpleasant is irrational. WW2 was very clearly not the product of stupidity.

It's interesting though that you are nitpicking about "distasteful" vs "morally abhorrent" (and will probably do the same about "unpleasant") while calling my point pedantry.

Re: When six boys were shipwrecked for 15 months (2020)

#150

Post by wizzwizz4 » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 12:56 PM UTC

esyir wrote: post #143

croes wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And one primal instinct is social bonding.

Which is also the primal instinct that allows for tribalism, which is really important when the other tribe is competing for a scarce resource. Humans are social creatures, but not social with the entire world.

Not social with the entire world yet. Give us time.