Earlier quoted context omitted.
Invest your surplus then you won't have any profit to be taxed upon. Which is what Microsoft is doing. Alternatively lobby your government to replace corporation tax with a company payable tax on the labour a company uses - which is actually what tax is for: to release manpower for the government use. Then Microsoft can't avoid it by profit shifting.
> company payable tax on the labour a company uses Wouldn't that create a perverse incentive to hire less and overload the remaining employees? I say this because that's exactly what it does on my home country.
Microsoft Irish subsidiary paid zero corporate tax on £220bn profit last year
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Re: Microsoft Irish subsidiary paid zero corporate tax on £220bn profit last year
#52Meanwhile my (single-person) company is paying around 20% corporation tax, and then I'm getting taxed a further 20-40% on top of that when I pay myself.
Re: Microsoft Irish subsidiary paid zero corporate tax on £220bn profit last year
#531. It's infeasible that Microsoft had profits of 200 billion euros. 2. A comment on the Guardian's journalists' potential financial conflicts of interest: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27352245
The guardian's headline is definitely mildly inflammatory, but it's a headline, and it's true. This particularly subsidiary had an income of €200bn, and very little expenditure. That's the textbook definition of profit, although it's definitely creative accounting!
Re: Microsoft Irish subsidiary paid zero corporate tax on £220bn profit last year
#54Re: Microsoft Irish subsidiary paid zero corporate tax on £220bn profit last year
#55Why can't governments learn that taxing corporations is pointless? The same revenue is can be raised more simply through sales tax and personal income tax on salaries and distributions.
The best tax is one that is imposed on an individual but paid at source by the corporation paying them. Individuals shouldn't see tax. That way the voters don't complain when you need to put it up. Sales tax is similarly a pain - particularly when you have differing rates. At which point we get into the famous is it a cake or a biscuit type cases to decide where the dividing line is.
The goal of government shouldn't be to obscure the cost of government services. The cost should be justified.
Re: Microsoft Irish subsidiary paid zero corporate tax on £220bn profit last year
#56Earlier quoted context omitted.
> company payable tax on the labour a company uses Wouldn't that create a perverse incentive to hire less and overload the remaining employees? I say this because that's exactly what it does on my home country.
Then give workers actual rights and the ability to unionize.
Re: Microsoft Irish subsidiary paid zero corporate tax on £220bn profit last year
#57I have to pay 40% of my income as income tax. I have HAD ENOUGH. This is infuriating. What can we do?
It's a tough question. The tendency is to react superficially: Moralizing reactions, emotional reaction, first principles takes. The way tax actually works is via accounting "standards," tax law and corporation law... across multiple jurisdictions. A thousand-detail complex , where morals, emotions and first principles are literally meaningless. Actual meaning can only be derived with scenario plans and spreadsheets. Words like "profit," "company," "revenue" and such don't have inherent meanings, in that world. They're just objects with associated rules.
The pro-corporate side of this debate (debate is the wrong word) deals entirely in the latter terms. Terms that the majority of journalists and politicians can't work with. They tend to win.
When the other side does consider the reality of mess, they tend to conclude radical/unrealistic conclusions like "throw everything out and start from scratch."
At this point, complexity is hardened by international agreements and trade rules.
IMO the actual place to start is corporation law, not tax law. If entities can own other entities, or part thereof in an endless cascade...words like "tax rate" have no meaning.
Another, more radical approach is rethinking the idea of public wealth. The currently ongoing collapse of monetarism is, perhaps, an opportunity. Tax public companies x% of their shares per year. Hold, to avoid price deflation. Offload shares as part of macroeconomic/monetary policy (ie, when we run deficits), to avoid inflationary scenarios such as the current one.
I would take the same approach for wealth taxes. Capital gains, property, etc. Tax x% of current market value annually, not income or realized gains. It won't be perfect, but everything gets marked to market eventually.
Re: Microsoft Irish subsidiary paid zero corporate tax on £220bn profit last year
#58Why can't governments learn that taxing corporations is pointless? The same revenue is can be raised more simply through sales tax and personal income tax on salaries and distributions.
I am sure the topic is complex, but from the article: > The company, Microsoft Round Island One, posted profits last year equal to nearly three-quarters of Ireland’s entire gross domestic product (GDP) – despite having zero employees. That, to me, sounds like maybe the plan to collect personal income tax on salaries might not be so straight forward.
Re: Microsoft Irish subsidiary paid zero corporate tax on £220bn profit last year
#59Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you're in the UK and still using dividends as a significant method to self-compensate, you may benefit from speaking to a (better) accountant. (Your circumstances may vary, this is not financial advice, YOLO, etc)
> If you're in the UK and still using dividends as a significant method to self-compensate, you may benefit from speaking to a (better) accountant. I'm curious what you're eluding to here? Using dividends as a significant method to self-compensate (for single-person companies) seems to be a pretty common practice recommended by every UK accountant I've spoken to / used. EDIT: Updated for clarification
Re: Microsoft Irish subsidiary paid zero corporate tax on £220bn profit last year
#60Why can't governments learn that taxing corporations is pointless? The same revenue is can be raised more simply through sales tax and personal income tax on salaries and distributions.
The best tax is one that is imposed on an individual but paid at source by the corporation paying them. Individuals shouldn't see tax. That way the voters don't complain when you need to put it up. Sales tax is similarly a pain - particularly when you have differing rates. At which point we get into the famous is it a cake or a biscuit type cases to decide where the dividing line is.
If taxation is such an inherent good then why does it need to be hidden from people?
If the rate is justifiable the government shouldn't need to hide it. When you consider a democratic society where the government at least indirectly serves the will of the people the idea of the government needing to pull a fast one on the people or obfuscate its actions lest the people tell them to stop becomes even more absurd.