Pesticides are killing the world's soils • Hacker News Board

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#201

Post by filoeleven » Wed, Jun 02, 2021, 7:43 PM UTC

mikehotel wrote: post #114

smhost wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

insect populations are declining rapidly and are also in need of protection. we're probably going to have to start eating bugs for survival when all the animals are dead, since bugs are one of the most efficient sources of protein, so i'd personally be wary of telling the bugs to fuck off just so we can save the crops.

If insect populations are dwindling and in need of protection, why would we suggest people eat them? Wouldn’t that accelerate their demise? Also, most folks are not protein deficient, but they are not getting enough fiber. https://www.vox.com/2019/3/20/18214505/fiber-diet-weight-los...

If we start eating insects, we will start farming them. But most of the insects we’re talking about as food sources are not primary pollinators.

And that’s the important distinction that your question raises. Increasing the total biomass of insects won’t help with the pollination problem if we’re only boosting non-pollinator species. It will not help the situation with insecticides and plants.

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#202

Post by filoeleven » Wed, Jun 02, 2021, 7:59 PM UTC

Ma8ee wrote: post #187

Clewza313 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely it's better to replace indiscriminate spraying of substances known to be harmful with GMO crops carefully bred to have the smallest changes possible?

Those are not the only alternatives available. There are farming practices that give good yield, use none or a minimum of pesticides and herbicides, and don't use any GMOs.

I saw a video that I wish I had bookmarked about a US farmer using alley cropping with no pesticides, and indeed almost no management other than the first planting and yearly harvesting.

Their setup is to grow asparagus for income in the alleys between nut trees (which take 7+ years to start producing), leave a bunch of asparagus to go to seed instead of harvesting it all, and time their field mowing to support asparagus growth. When the trees start producing, they will reforest the fields between them. Low-effort and low-cost by working with native species and using long-established techniques.

Is it going to yield as much as highly-managed farmland? No. But it also takes a fraction of the effort, so they can pursue other things in the meantime. It ain’t quite passive income, but it ain’t real active either, and they’re rehabilitating the flora and fauna while they do it.

Lots of permaculture ideas share similarities with this and are more geared towards higher yields.

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#203

Post by nitrogen » Wed, Jun 02, 2021, 8:34 PM UTC

hosh wrote: post #155

nitrogen wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They usually have livestock raised with the crops. People stopped doing this because of parasites, prions, and other pathogens like salmonella.

They stopped doing that because feed grain was subsidized and it was easier to put the livestock all together. It was a race to maximize yield by specializing on one cash crop or one livestock. Can’t do much about prions. That wasn’t even discovered until after broad use of synthetic fertilizers. Parasites can be an issue. Salmonella can also be an issue. But I think they are still an issue on ranches where livestock…

As far as salmonella getting into the crops ... it can’t survive more than a few hours outside of a host.

If that's the case, then why have there been multiple recalls of produce and peanut butter for salmonella contamination?

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#204

Post by hosh » Wed, Jun 02, 2021, 9:29 PM UTC

nitrogen wrote: post #203

hosh wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They stopped doing that because feed grain was subsidized and it was easier to put the livestock all together. It was a race to maximize yield by specializing on one cash crop or one livestock. Can’t do much about prions. That wasn’t even discovered until after broad use of synthetic fertilizers. Parasites can be an issue. Salmonella can also be an issue. But I think they are still an issue on ranches where livestock…

As far as salmonella getting into the crops ... it can’t survive more than a few hours outside of a host. If that's the case, then why have there been multiple recalls of produce and peanut butter for salmonella contamination?

I don't know why. I had looked it up once because I have backyard chickens. I had found an article talking about the few hours thing, but when I looked for it again, I found these:

https://www.reference.com/world-view/long-can-salmonella-liv...

This one talking about salmonella surviving on surfaces for months.

https://news.cornell.edu/stories/1997/12/salmonella-fact-she...

This one has more specifics:

> Salmonella bacteria love wet environments shielded from the sun. They have the remarkable ability to survive under adverse conditions. They survive between the pH’s of 4 to 8+, and can grow between 8 and 45 C. Salmonella are facultative anaerobic bacteria that can survive under low oxygen tension such as in manure slurry pits. Salmonella are known to survive for long periods in soil and in water. Salmonellae spread onto fields in the form of manure may survive for long periods; it is best to spread the manure onto flat land (to prevent runoff problems) where it is exposed to the drying effects of wind, and to the bactericidal effect of UV irradiation from the sun; manure should be spread onto cropland rather than onto pastures for grazing.

I think the article I got was talking about how long salmonella can survive in the sun. (I live in Phoenix). I was wrong about salmonella surviving only a few hours outside the body, though it seems there are circumstances where exposure to UV light from the sun and drying out can kill the salmonella faster.

In that same paragraph, it also mentions the best practice is to spread it onto cropland rather than pastures for grazing. In the regenerative practices I was talking about, the grazing animals are frequently rotated through sections of pasture. It might be a full year before they are rotated back onto the same section again. On other farms, the pasture is actually no-till cropland that have cover grown on it, and probably sectioned off as well.

On feedlots, the livestock all confined together. You have to keep up with clearing the manure, and I think it is more likely for pathogens to infect the whole herd, than when you are rotating the livestock to new pastures.

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#205

Post by solraph » Wed, Jun 02, 2021, 10:34 PM UTC

spindle wrote: post #169

sofixa wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem with modern 2-party systems in the West You mean the US, maybe Canada? The closest equivalents outside of North America, the UK and Australia, with the same broken voting system that favours a limited party landscape, have more than 2 parties in the mainstream and coalitions are often needed ( like Tories with DUP recently).

I upvoted this because I agree that the UK and Australia have more than two important parties, but I believe that the Australian voting system is MUCH better than the US and UK systems (which also supports your main point in a way).

It's better, but it's still rubbish. The FPTP system virtually guarantees a two party system, which means that whatever one party thinks is a good idea, the other is effectively forced into taking the opposing view, and the lake of anti-competition laws (or enforcement of?) around media effectively means that Murdoch media and the Liberal/National coalition are basically wings of the same party.

Having seen MMP play out on the other side of the Tasman, it's pretty clear that MMP produces saner outcomes.

My personal opinion is that is MMP forces coalitions more often. The upshot of which is that everyone is forced to be more willing to communicate and compromise and take on saner positions, because the opposition one term may turn out to be the maker of the governing party the next.

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#206

Post by hinkley » Wed, Jun 02, 2021, 11:55 PM UTC

filoeleven wrote: post #201

mikehotel wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If insect populations are dwindling and in need of protection, why would we suggest people eat them? Wouldn’t that accelerate their demise? Also, most folks are not protein deficient, but they are not getting enough fiber. https://www.vox.com/2019/3/20/18214505/fiber-diet-weight-los...

If we start eating insects, we will start farming them. But most of the insects we’re talking about as food sources are not primary pollinators. And that’s the important distinction that your question raises. Increasing the total biomass of insects won’t help with the pollination problem if we’re only boosting non-pollinator species. It will not help the situation with insecticides and plants.

We'll have the same problem that salmon farms and honeybee wranglers have now: so many parasites that they transfer to the wild populations.

I mean, I still think we should farm insects, but as a more natural substitute for corn for our omnivore meat sources.

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#207

Post by hinkley » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 12:03 AM UTC

Red_Leaves_Flyy wrote: post #186

hinkley wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genes do not stay put. Genes do not know how to stay put. Their whole purpose is to spread. The difference between weed and crop is very narrow in many cases. Brassicas especially. Any gene you put into them you’re going to deal with in a weed very soon.

>One example of hybridization between GM crops and wild species has been documented in creeping bentgrass commonly used on golf courses. Scotts Miracle-Gro genetically engineered this grass to contain a gene that confers resistance to a common herbicide so that the golf course can be sprayed to kill weeds without harm to the grass. Because this grass is wind-pollinated, a perennial, and highly capable of outcrossing…

In 'Gathering Moss', RWK talks about how moss spores hitchhike on squirrels, increasing their effective range by over one or two orders of magnitude.

Recently it came out that birds can and sometimes do transport live fish eggs to new bodies of water, miles away. And I learned today that birds that don't eat the seeds they get from the bird feeder? They take them and hide them, for instance in the chinks in tree bark. For the species this man knew about, most of those seeds end up in a 50 meter radius of the source, but there are other transport systems like digestive tracts (see also birds and pepper seeds)

Animals that keep transporting viable germlines around with them create a selective advantage for their entire species. Squirrels, humans, pollinators, etc. If our ancestors hadn't literally and figuratively squirreled seeds away we'd probably not be here to have this conversation.

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#208

Post by selcuka » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 1:44 AM UTC

samatman wrote: post #158

selcuka wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, I'm not a biologist but I highly doubt that. Evolution had millions of years to create very specialised genes in different organisms. Genes have complex interactions between them and we don't always have a full grasp of those interactions. Cherry picking a single gene from an insect and transplanting it onto a plant might have unforeseen effects. I'm neither pro-pesticide nor anti-GMO but we should refrain our…

Well you shouldn't. We share about 50% of our DNA with a banana.

Exactly my point. It's a huge difference.

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#209

Post by highstep » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 2:13 AM UTC

BTCOG wrote: post #182

I've planted a large variety of vegetables and clovers, buckwheat and things that wasps and bees love for several years. In the last two years of crop alone, I had absolutely no horn worms on any of my tomatoes or related Solanaceae family, no white moths able to lay eggs and destroy my kale, broccolis, or other greens and this is something if you're familiar with farming is unheard of without pesticides. I welcome s…

I also have found the same success. The more i lean into supporting insect diversity the more prolific my garden becomes. Do you have any tips for supporting wasps? I make sure to have water available for them at all times.

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#210

Post by filoeleven » Thu, Jun 03, 2021, 3:36 AM UTC

hinkley wrote: post #206

filoeleven wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we start eating insects, we will start farming them. But most of the insects we’re talking about as food sources are not primary pollinators. And that’s the important distinction that your question raises. Increasing the total biomass of insects won’t help with the pollination problem if we’re only boosting non-pollinator species. It will not help the situation with insecticides and plants.

We'll have the same problem that salmon farms and honeybee wranglers have now: so many parasites that they transfer to the wild populations. I mean, I still think we should farm insects, but as a more natural substitute for corn for our omnivore meat sources.

Yeah, I haven’t looked into that but there’s no reason to expect otherwise. Speaking broadly, farming optimizes for output and disregards the ecosystems that the farms are a part of. For each farmer, this is okay; it works for them for now. Taken as a whole, it is not okay and contributes to bigger problems later (sometimes for earlier values of later).

A greater understanding of farming trade-offs when it comes to ecosystems would likely obviate the need for farming insects in the first place. High up on the list is eliminating factory farms, and IMO all livestock farms and massive monoculture plant farms will have to be deeply scrutinized.