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History of the Nautilus loudspeaker

bowerswilkins.com

131–140 of 174 posts

Re: History of the Nautilus loudspeaker

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn’t miss it; it’s just not valid. (1) The HD800S is actually not as highly regarded as you may think on ASR because these issues do show up in the measurements and are pointed out in the review (did you read it?), but also (2) the HD800’s issues are indeed very much fixable with EQ, and I can confirm this subjectively with direct experience with my HD800S. I hope you’re not thinking I’m advocating a crude N-band…

You claim high-end audio is not subjective, but then bring up the Harman target. You're defeating your own point. As you know, the Harman target is a "mass market" pleasing option for average joe's. Its not the be all and end all of audio signatures. I am in the "bass head" camp, and I loathe it for a lot of the stuff I listen to. I'd take a JVC HA-SZ2000 over the HD 800s for my taste.

If you re-read my posts, you'll note several things I point out or at least allude to, beyond the oversimplified characterization of "not subjective":

(1) We have an objective science that disambiguates and understands differences that are subjective versus universal preferences in speakers (to some reasonable threshold of population universality; e.g. maybe you find some 0.0000001% population that prefers horrible screeching noises added to any audio content, but arguing for this as an important dimension of subjective variability that we need to incorporate into hardware is I hope clearly absurd).

(2) The vast majority of subjective variability relates to differences in frequency response, which are extremely easy and cheap to adjust in software -- no need to cycle through many multi-thousand dollar headphones or speakers just in hopes of finding one that suits your preferred frequency response target.

(3) Almost every kind of imperfection that can't be corrected via frequency response tuning (e.g. undistorted SPL capability, THD, IMD, off-axis smoothness and similarity to on-axis for speakers, power handling and dynamic compression, etc.) turns out to be almost universally disliked versus when that imperfection does not exist.

(4) Once frequency response balance is factored out either via custom EQ or a "mass market" target curve (which for headphones is indeed more of a compromise, but for speakers is not even remotely a subjective matter, since there are mountains of scientific evidence over decades proving over and over again that the preferred anechoic frequency response for speakers is flat, i.e. the mathematically perfect identity function), which naturally yields a preferred in-room target curve of a smoothly declining slope -- very little (if any) subjective variability remains (e.g. bass boost or treble tilt to taste is one such example).

(5) To be clear, some subjective variability does remain, but it mostly relates to head fit and comfort (for headphones), and for speakers is much more nuanced and tends to relate to beam width and height differences. In both cases, the science is capable of examining these precisely, not in some kind of vague or hand-wavy woo woo sense. Lastly, there is always some need to make some coarse adjustments to bass and treble when listening to older recordings or recordings which were mastered to a non-neutral reference curve (as they should be, else it's impossible to ever reconstruct what was intended) -- but this is not so much a matter of listener preference as it is correcting for mixing/mastering errors in older or lower quality tracks.

Re: History of the Nautilus loudspeaker

#132
post #38

Best high-end audio for at home: https://www.boesendorfer.com/en/pianos/disklavier-edition If you do not have the time and talent to play it yourself, you can listen to Horowitz or others playing live in your home on a real piano.

The real deal is certainly unbeatable, but even then you could have the best concert grand installed in your house and it would still not sound nearly as good as the one sitting in the middle of a massive concert hall expressly designed for this purpose. I would have to wonder if a high quality recording of a piano in a proper setting would be more compelling to certain listeners than a live performance in a less ide…

My Bösendorfer grand piano sounds much better than my B&W loudspeakers with high end project amplifier in the same living room. It is not even comparable.

Re: History of the Nautilus loudspeaker

#133
post #16

Never heard these myself, but I remember that Nautilus speakers were used in an MP3 listening test by the German c't magazine in 2000[1]. Conclusion: > In plain language, this means that our musically trained test listeners could reliably distinguish the poorer quality MP3s at 128kbps quite accurately from either of the other higher-quality samples. But when deciding between 256 kbps encoded MP3s and the original CD,…

I believe Fraunhofver did a pretty rigorous scientific test that established the CD transparency quality to be around 256kbps mp3. I don't dispute or doubt that. However, obvious encoding artifacts abound on Spotify. Do I have a superhuman hearing? Probably not. My hypothesis is that not everyone authors lossy files as meticulously as Fraunhofver. Also, the performance of mp3 depends on a highly linear and faithful r…

Spotify doesn't use MP3, though. So if you're hearing MP3-specific artifacts (pre-echo, washy "underwater" cymbals), those are probably the result of bad mastering or perhaps using MP3-encoded samples in some tracks. I hear this on some lossless tracks I have, unfortunately if the source material is flawed, there's nothing you can do.

Spotify uses Ogg Vorbis, except the lowest bitrate on mobile, which is HE-ACCv2, and on Chromecast/similar devices, which get AAC (because they can't natively decode Ogg Vorbis).

It is a significantly better codec than MP3, and doesn't suffer from the pre-echo, washy cymbals and badly-encoded high frequencies. At least not until you severely decrease the bitrate.

Re: History of the Nautilus loudspeaker

#134

I am surprised there aren’t more mentions here of AudioScienceReview.com For anyone interested in buying speakers (or other audio products), it’s a fantastic resource and an essential one to avoid getting ripped off with severely overpriced and underperforming products; sadly, the high fidelity speaker space is crowded with such products (many of which are borderline scams), using a ton of pseudoscientific marketing…

> it’s a fantastic resource and an essential one to avoid getting ripped off with severely overpriced and underperforming product

Yeah, you need to whip off the rose tinted glasses. ASR is a step in the right direction, but there are no shortage of issues with the quality and consistency of Amir's testing, or his ludicrous hyperbole.

Re: History of the Nautilus loudspeaker

#135
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but 90% of the road can be traveled with just basic, but good components IMHO. Amen. No expert here but I've been in the hobby for a while and have demo'd some high end stuff at audio shows. I strongly believe a really good "90% of the way there" system can be put together for well under $500 retail, or even less if going DIY or used.

Can you give an example of such a <$500 system? I'm genuinely curious.

Mine is a bit more expensive, since I bought the speakers new (I had somewhat specific demands), but everything else was second-hand.

I've got a pair of Monitor Audio Bronze 2s, a Denon AVR-1911 receiver and two Dali SWA 12 subwoofers.

As I wrote above, I bought the speakers new, because I wanted relatively large bookshelf speakers with front ports and living room-friendly looks, and nothing presented itself second-hand. With a bit of patience, you should be able to find a solid pair of speakers in mint condition for $2-300, no problem.

The receiver has 90W per channel (for real, no tricks), Audyssey room correction and was just $80 second hand from a guy who had upgraded to a 4K-capable receiver. I have it hooked up to my TV and so on, but at that price I would be perfectly happy just using it as a stereo amp, since it has good power, digital inputs, room correction and bass management for subwoofers.

The subwoofers were ~$200 each second hand, years and years ago. I'm sure they're even less expensive now, or you can just do without subs.

Re: History of the Nautilus loudspeaker

#136
post #16

Never heard these myself, but I remember that Nautilus speakers were used in an MP3 listening test by the German c't magazine in 2000[1]. Conclusion: > In plain language, this means that our musically trained test listeners could reliably distinguish the poorer quality MP3s at 128kbps quite accurately from either of the other higher-quality samples. But when deciding between 256 kbps encoded MP3s and the original CD,…

I believe Fraunhofver did a pretty rigorous scientific test that established the CD transparency quality to be around 256kbps mp3. I don't dispute or doubt that. However, obvious encoding artifacts abound on Spotify. Do I have a superhuman hearing? Probably not. My hypothesis is that not everyone authors lossy files as meticulously as Fraunhofver. Also, the performance of mp3 depends on a highly linear and faithful r…

> Mp3 is painfully obvious on crappy, processed-to-hell speaker systems like the iMac.

I didn't know that was the case. Do you know why that somehow accentuates MP3 artifacts? It's not obvious to me why it would, since all the processing iMac speakers might perform is high-quality (no recompression involved). I mean, obviously the iMac isn't going to improve the MP3, it just tries to improve the speakers. But why would that make artifacts more noticeable?

If anything, don't "crappy" speakers hide MP3 artifacts, because they're not good enough to expose them?

Re: History of the Nautilus loudspeaker

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have an example of some of these cheap USB speakers please?

https://a.aliexpress.com/_m0XS3Zr They are a bit underpowered, rumble with Bluetooth, and you need to turn the bass and highs quite a bit down to make them sound flat, but I bet that something like 100x times more expensive studio speakers will be the cheapest setup that matches them in the clarity.

I have a hard time taking your recommendation seriously, unless you have never heard a good set of speakers in person.

A pair of JBL 305P MkIIs will absolutely wipe the floor with discount speakers like those, with such a huge margin, that it's not even remotely fair.

$300 for a pair, certain a lot less than 100x price difference.

Re: History of the Nautilus loudspeaker

#138
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

e.g. in classical music, you can tell subtle differences if you've listened the piece live or performed it inside an orchestra Can you explain this a bit more? How is having heard a piece live, which by definition means a unique performance, going to affect whether or not you can pick out whether the recording of (likely) a different performance has been put through lossy compression? Or do you mean a recording of th…

In classical music, the performance is of course unique, but the piece is not. What I mean is, even if the arrangement has changed for a particular piece, the underlying score, the foundation is same. As you know, classical music is layered. It can be scaled for different sized orchestras, which can be akin to tessellation in graphics. You can add more nuanced scores or details if your orchestra has enough members. O…

I don't disagree with the fact that you perceive more in a live performance -- after all there's a wealth of spatial information that you don't get in stereo.

But that has absolutely nothing to do with compression. All that would matter is whether you're missing the "nuance" or "layers" that are there on an uncompressed CD, but that you would perceive to be gone in MP3.

I've performed and listened to a ton of classical music in my life, and I've never heard a difference in what you're talking about between CD's and MP3's. It doesn't really make any sense in terms of how MP3 compression works, either -- the compression artifacts it introduces are pretty orthogonal to nuance in classical music. at 128+ kbps

It sounds to me like you're describing the difference between a live concert and an uncompressed stereo recording, no matter how well it was mastered.

Re: History of the Nautilus loudspeaker

#139
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that still had nothing to do with comparing lossy vs lossless, or am I misunderstanding you? How does a live performance that you hear with your ears at a specific place in a room help you pick out missing parts in a different recording, played by different people in a different place, recorded with multiple mics and then mixed and mastered?

It seems plausible to me. I assume that when you are doing a comparison, you are comparing a single source to a memory (does anyone do comparisons by playing two synchronized sources together, possibly into different ears?) In that case, I can well imagine that listening to multiple live performances primes one's mind to remember clearly how a given presentation sounded, and to pick out small differences, precisely b…

You just described “double tracking”. The point is that we blur them into a singular event with spatial definition, but I digress

Re: History of the Nautilus loudspeaker

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true. I'm going to make a vast oversimplification here, but a rule of thumb is that a lot of the well-regarded DIY kits on the market compare well with retail speakers that cost 2-3X as much. Some examples: https://www.parts-express.com/speaker-components/speaker-sub... https://www.diysoundgroup.com/home-audio-speaker-kits/home-a... https://meniscusaudio.com/product-category/speaker-kits/ etc.

What kind of bugs me is that there really aren't any kits and very few DIY designs that match the kind of speakers I really miss, at least not ones focused on home audio. Those speakers being the old-school big boxes with 12-15" woofers, sometimes multiple and usually 3-way designs, sometimes 4-way. Large, heavy, imposing and punchy, big speakers for big music. I know modern speaker drivers have come a long way, but…

The home theater speaker kits from DIYSG should be right up your alley! Lots of 12" and even 15" woofers I think.

https://www.diysoundgroup.com/home-theater-speaker-kits.html

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