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Pesticides are killing the world's soils

scientificamerican.com

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Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#171

Post by immibis »

phicoh wrote: post #165
tomp wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the Swiss & EU are right in this case. Any form of retirement works the same - young people working to serve the old. How you finance it is a different question - but clearly increasing taxes & lowering pensions is just one way of the system breaking down. Another way is, everybody saving while working, not having kids, then spending when retired (results in market crashes & massive inflation). The original probl…

Many countries have realised that relying on a continuously growing population has its own problems. So you need a pension system for a population that doesn't grow. Basically that means that everybody has to pay for their own pension. It doesn't really matter whether you do it as taxes that get paid to the people currently retired or by saving money. The solution The Netherlands came up with (next to moving to an in…

It does matter, because all the saving and dissaving of the saving-based scheme distorts financial markets and sometimes doesn't work anyway. For example, imagine a system where everyone buys an extra house, then sells it when they retire. Now there are twice as many houses as there need to be. And therefore everyone has to commute 1.41 times farther on average; twice as much lumber is used up; twice as many builders are needed. Now imagine the next generation invests in something other than houses because houses are too expensive because of all this extra demand. Let's say tulips. So the first generation goes to sell their houses to retire and... wait, nobody wants one? They already have one and they don't want to buy a second one for their own retirement savings? Well, then the housing market crashes and all those people lost money on their retirement. (And the third generation will buy up all these cheap houses and say screw the second generation's tulips, we don't want tulips...)

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#172

Post by immibis »

tomp wrote: post #167
phicoh wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many countries have realised that relying on a continuously growing population has its own problems. So you need a pension system for a population that doesn't grow. Basically that means that everybody has to pay for their own pension. It doesn't really matter whether you do it as taxes that get paid to the people currently retired or by saving money. The solution The Netherlands came up with (next to moving to an in…

No, you missed my point. Pension isn’t about money . It’s about work . Less working adults => less surplus value created by society => less resources available for retired people. How you finance that - via direct payments / taxes, or via individual savings - is besides the point. Neither of these can defeat the economics of supply (of working-age adults’ labour) and demand (of the retired non-producing population).…

This, TBH. Far too many people think economics is about money. Economics is really about distributing goods and services and work. Money is just one possible means to that end (perhaps the best one).

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#173

Post by phicoh »

tomp wrote: post #167
phicoh wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many countries have realised that relying on a continuously growing population has its own problems. So you need a pension system for a population that doesn't grow. Basically that means that everybody has to pay for their own pension. It doesn't really matter whether you do it as taxes that get paid to the people currently retired or by saving money. The solution The Netherlands came up with (next to moving to an in…

No, you missed my point. Pension isn’t about money . It’s about work . Less working adults => less surplus value created by society => less resources available for retired people. How you finance that - via direct payments / taxes, or via individual savings - is besides the point. Neither of these can defeat the economics of supply (of working-age adults’ labour) and demand (of the retired non-producing population).…

That why I specifically mention The Netherlands raising the retirement age. That causes both more labor to be available and reduces the number of people who are retired.

Pensioners don't cash out at once. The number of pensioners grows slowly which many result in gradually lower demand for stock or real estate. No need to expect a crash because of this.

No need to expect anything to happen to food either. Food production is highly efficient and relies on only a tiny fraction of the total labour

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#174

Post by immibis »

samatman wrote: post #158
selcuka wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, I'm not a biologist but I highly doubt that. Evolution had millions of years to create very specialised genes in different organisms. Genes have complex interactions between them and we don't always have a full grasp of those interactions. Cherry picking a single gene from an insect and transplanting it onto a plant might have unforeseen effects. I'm neither pro-pesticide nor anti-GMO but we should refrain our…

Well you shouldn't. We share about 50% of our DNA with a banana.

And that 50% seems to do something very different in humans than in bananas

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#175

Post by snovv_crash »

rini17 wrote: post #126
jnotwell wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're interested in the subject, I highly recommend Tomorrow's Table [1], a book by Pamela Ronald, a plant pathologist and geneticist, and Raoul Adamchak, her husband and an organic farmer (disclaimer: my fiancé works in Pam's lab). The subject of the book isn't pesticides or biodiversity per se, but rather how to produce food sustainably in the face of population growth and climate change. An anecdote from the b…

Somewhat lower yields are fine, just reallocate land from other uses. In Europe there's overproduction so large parts of land ended up growing biofuels, which is incredibly stupid. In America large part is fed to cows (in Europe grazing is preferred).

Switzerland doesn't have lots of excess land, it is highly industrialised already.

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#176

Post by snovv_crash »

Ma8ee wrote: post #115
sampo wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BASF has produced herbicide tolerant crops plants without using GMO in the breeding process, and patented the whole system (BASF Clearfield ® Production System). This does everything people accuse GMO's for, but it's not GMO.

That just proves that it is possible to achieve what the GMO proponents argue that GMOs are necessary for, without using GM. And it certainly doesn't do the main thing that we accuse GMOs for, which is spreading genetically modified organisms in nature. I couldn't quickly find any information about the system that didn't look like marketing material. But apparently you have to combine it with other practices, like cr…

No, it's far worse than GMO. Because besides the changes which were desired, there are also a whole bunch of random mutations which were introduced, which could do anything from making the species highly invasive, to putting carcinogens in the parts used for human consumption.

GM is much safer and easier to verify as not having harmful side effects. And, it's easier. The only reason they invented this process at all is because people were scared of GM.

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#177

Post by distances »

tomp wrote: post #140
Apanatshka wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An important and sometimes forgotten thing about democracy is that it isn't as simple as the majority rules. It's the majority rules while taking minorities into account. In a well functioning representational democracy this is kept in mind my career politicians. In a hybrid between representational and direct like in Switzerland, the population can overrule and just go with majority rule. For example, the Swiss pens…

No, the Swiss & EU are right in this case. Any form of retirement works the same - young people working to serve the old. How you finance it is a different question - but clearly increasing taxes & lowering pensions is just one way of the system breaking down. Another way is, everybody saving while working, not having kids, then spending when retired (results in market crashes & massive inflation). The original probl…

Many European countries have massive pension funds collected over the decades, with accumulation and payout planned in advance to match the demographics. This is the better model parent suggested that is hard to get through if it wasn't started during the boomer generation.

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#178

Post by Ma8ee »

snovv_crash wrote: post #176
Ma8ee wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That just proves that it is possible to achieve what the GMO proponents argue that GMOs are necessary for, without using GM. And it certainly doesn't do the main thing that we accuse GMOs for, which is spreading genetically modified organisms in nature. I couldn't quickly find any information about the system that didn't look like marketing material. But apparently you have to combine it with other practices, like cr…

No, it's far worse than GMO. Because besides the changes which were desired, there are also a whole bunch of random mutations which were introduced, which could do anything from making the species highly invasive, to putting carcinogens in the parts used for human consumption. GM is much safer and easier to verify as not having harmful side effects. And, it's easier. The only reason they invented this process at all…

More random mutations than traditional breeding? I would be genuinely interested if you could provide some reliable source for what you are claiming. But I must confess that for now it sounds like FUD spread by the GMO industry.

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#179

Post by sampo »

BelenusMordred wrote: post #117
sampo wrote: post #64

This is a skillfully written piece to raise anger. But if you look closely, there are some signs: This piece refers to a study [1]. As they mention, this Scientific American piece is written by 2 of the 5 authors of the study. 4 out of 5 of the study authors don't work in a conventional academic institution, but in nature conservation non-profits [2, 3]. The study [1] is titled "A Hazard Assessment". If you know the…

Think the people putting their names to this peer review should be noted: EDITED BY Christophe Darnault Clemson University, United States REVIEWED BY Roberta Fulthorpe University of Toronto Scarborough, Canada Alan Kolok University of Idaho, United States Kean Goh California Department of Pesticide Regulation, United States Do you plan to write a rebuttal to the journal and those who oversaw it at any point? Or just…

I think the literature review article in Frontiers in Environmental Science is pretty honest at being what it is. They do literature searches and take notes on the presence and potential of a hazard. It's not a risk analysis, and it's not quantitative, and it doesn't pretend to be.

They conclude (end of Abstract):

> The prevalence of negative effects in our results underscores the need for soil organisms to be represented in any risk analysis of a pesticide that has the potential to contaminate soil, and for any significant risk to be mitigated in a way that will specifically reduce harm to soil organisms and to the many important ecosystem services they provide.

and (end of Conclusions):

> This review presents extensive evidence that pesticides pose a serious threat to soil invertebrates and the essential ecosystem services that they provide. Given the widespread and increasing adoption of seed and soil applied pesticides that pose a particular threat to soil organisms, we strongly support the inclusion of a soil health analysis in the United States pesticide risk assessment process.

And I think there is some distance from these to "Pesticides Are Killing the World’s Soils".

But I don't know how much should it concern the editors or Frontiers in Environmental Science, if same people first publish in their journal, and then go on to write something different in a popular science magazine (Scientific American)?

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#180

Post by Ma8ee »

snovv_crash wrote: post #176
Ma8ee wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That just proves that it is possible to achieve what the GMO proponents argue that GMOs are necessary for, without using GM. And it certainly doesn't do the main thing that we accuse GMOs for, which is spreading genetically modified organisms in nature. I couldn't quickly find any information about the system that didn't look like marketing material. But apparently you have to combine it with other practices, like cr…

No, it's far worse than GMO. Because besides the changes which were desired, there are also a whole bunch of random mutations which were introduced, which could do anything from making the species highly invasive, to putting carcinogens in the parts used for human consumption. GM is much safer and easier to verify as not having harmful side effects. And, it's easier. The only reason they invented this process at all…

Also, what process is there for verifying that GMOs don't have any harmful side effects that you can't use for traditionally bred plants?
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