Earlier quoted context omitted.
There is actually tribalism in the form of economic equality. Rich people only hang out with rich people. Poor only with the poor, etc. What does a rich person need to do to be segregated from society? Simply go to a expensive restaurant or country club.
There’s a distinction in the article, I think, in that tribalism is rooted in anti-egalitarianism that your comment doesn’t address. You can go to different restaurants without thinking less of another person. Differing tastes/hobbies/actions is not enough to meet the criteria of tribalism, less we fracture into “pineapple on pizza vs no pineapple” tribes.
Are we cut out for universal morality?
121–130 of 137 posts
Re: Are we cut out for universal morality?
#122Re: Are we cut out for universal morality?
#123>That is at least what moral practice is like when viewed “from the inside.” By that I mean your moral phenomenology as an engaged participant. This perspective presents the appearance of at least a core of basic objective and universally valid or correct moral standards we are trying to understand and to live by (even as we recognize that we will at best do so imperfectly). This is why we’re prepared to argue, often…
I like your example and the fundament of your message that ethical decisions being made under the same meat brain machine, but I feel like you are conflating abstract reasoning about "morals" and intuitive empathizing with "moral" behaviour. To me they don't look the same. I can say with absolute certainty that the lives of both children are morally equal, yet I can appreciate that one can not help equally in both ca…
You can help them equally that is my point. One requires you to ruin your clothes by jumping in water the other requires you spending a bit of effort locating a legit charity and sending a check. Make no mistake, your capability to donate to Africa vs. jumping into water is EXACTLY the same. That is my point.
The urgency is different, but that's an illusion. The effort and cost to save either child is exactly the same. Say your clothes is worth $20,000 and you only need to donate $5000 to save a child in Africa. Then even saving the child in Africa costs less.
This is the moral conflict. Logically you interpret the lives of both children as equal but behaviorally most people will likely only act to save the drowning baby. Even from a judgement perspective, without deep introspection people will be outraged at the person who watched the baby die and not be outraged at the millions of people who haven't donated a dime to Africa.
The judgement and behavior differs from the logic which says both lives are equal. That is the biological flaw. It basically shows that because our morality is flawed, it is then basically an arbitrary set of biological rules, not worth the time for deep analysis. This is entirely different from the fundamental laws of physics which is very much worth our time for deep analysis.
Re: Are we cut out for universal morality?
#124>That is at least what moral practice is like when viewed “from the inside.” By that I mean your moral phenomenology as an engaged participant. This perspective presents the appearance of at least a core of basic objective and universally valid or correct moral standards we are trying to understand and to live by (even as we recognize that we will at best do so imperfectly). This is why we’re prepared to argue, often…
This can be explained as diffusion of responsibility. It's not really the same situation. Thus your moral obligations are not the same.
Re: Are we cut out for universal morality?
#125Earlier quoted context omitted.
> If you look at the laws of practically every developed country, there is no "tribalism." The laws may not be tribalistic, but their enforcement certainly is. Take, for example, drugs. This report from the U.S. Department of Justice[1] indicates that arrests for the selling of drugs disproportionately targets black people by 33%, and arrests for possession of drugs disproportionately targets black people by 26%. The…
> The laws may not be tribalistic I get what you're saying overall, and I agree with most of it, but you're giving too much credit with this statement. Some laws are tribalistic in America. It's not just that drug laws disproportionately target Black Americans in their enforcement, they were in their original forms designed to do so. The whole history of segregation and voter suppression is laws that were designed to…
No one was talking about that 4 years ago. Its like saying its tribalisme to care about the environment compared to a century ago.
For the trans its just we have move higher in the scale of 1st world problems.
Re: Are we cut out for universal morality?
#126Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The laws may not be tribalistic I get what you're saying overall, and I agree with most of it, but you're giving too much credit with this statement. Some laws are tribalistic in America. It's not just that drug laws disproportionately target Black Americans in their enforcement, they were in their original forms designed to do so. The whole history of segregation and voter suppression is laws that were designed to…
> The current push for anti-trans legislation in multiple states is also being driven by tribalism. Keeping trans people out of bathrooms and sports didn't suddenly become an emergency to anyone because of any brand new risk or development or scientific discovery. There's no reason why this would be more pressing to Republicans now than it would have been 4 years ago. No one was talking about that 4 years ago. Its li…
Boy and girl sports leagues reinforce this conclusion for me. I'm watching people who I know have never once argued about the integrity of girls' sports in any capacity suddenly tell me that this is a pressing issue that is reducing safe spaces for women. It's hard to explain that shift without tribalism. Maybe it's just ignorance of what's going on, maybe they don't actually realize that trans athletes aren't a brand new thing, maybe they believe this is a novel situation. Or maybe some of this is fueled by reactionary rhetoric from leaders and new sources, both of which really shouldn't be able to believably claim ignorance as an excuse.
It's not universal, I don't claim that tribalism explains everything. But you can at least in theory point to environmental issues and argue about them using actual data in the real world. We can point to statistics about, say, incarceration and show that it was a problem before awareness went up. We can point to environmental issues and believably say, "species were always going extinct and we would like it to stop." In contrast, there's no objective reason to argue that transgender athletes are more dangerous today than they would have been in the past. And importantly, there's very little to point to as evidence that anybody was getting hurt because of transgender athletes in the past. It's not just a 1st-world problem that people suddenly have bandwidth to argue about, it's a debate that's almost entirely defined by opposition to a social trend rather any kind of data or visible problem.
I do think at some point it makes sense to call that a reactionary movement.
And of course, this isn't necessarily Republican-exclusive, I do also see Democrats who call themselves allies but have done very little research about what problems trans people face or how trans communities talk about these issues. And I do think there's a little bit of tribalism there where a subset of the Democratic party has picked a side in this debate based pretty much entirely on their party identity, not because they understand what's going on or because they've done any research. However, in my opinion there's comparatively very little real-world harm from clueless allies, so I spend more time focusing on the Republican side because laws that restrict medical care for children are just obviously a more harmful, dangerous result for the trans community than a tone-deaf message from a company or a poorly phrased Facebook post is.
Re: Are we cut out for universal morality?
#127Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The current push for anti-trans legislation in multiple states is also being driven by tribalism. Keeping trans people out of bathrooms and sports didn't suddenly become an emergency to anyone because of any brand new risk or development or scientific discovery. There's no reason why this would be more pressing to Republicans now than it would have been 4 years ago. No one was talking about that 4 years ago. Its li…
This doesn't match the experience I have when I try talking to people who are anti-trans. They don't argue that people using the wrong bathroom was always a threat and that they're more aware of it now. They argue as if it's a new problem. So in my opinion awareness is not a good enough explanation on its own to describe why they're talking about the issue now. Boy and girl sports leagues reinforce this conclusion fo…
Independently of how i feel about it, It IS new to care about the feelings of minority groups that much.. we moved up the "maslow" scale of problems to adress as a society.
Re: Are we cut out for universal morality?
#128Earlier quoted context omitted.
This doesn't match the experience I have when I try talking to people who are anti-trans. They don't argue that people using the wrong bathroom was always a threat and that they're more aware of it now. They argue as if it's a new problem. So in my opinion awareness is not a good enough explanation on its own to describe why they're talking about the issue now. Boy and girl sports leagues reinforce this conclusion fo…
> They argue as if it's a new problem Independently of how i feel about it, It IS new to care about the feelings of minority groups that much.. we moved up the "maslow" scale of problems to adress as a society.
I think you're making the mistake of conflating the motivations behind people who are fighting for trans rights and the motivations behind people who are fighting against trans rights. But the motivations between those two groups are not going to be identical.
I buy that Maslow's hierarchy of needs might maybe offer some explanation why we're finally getting around to addressing problems affecting the trans community, but is not sufficient to explain why it would be a brand new priority for Republicans to regress trans rights.
Tribalism/reactionism however does go a long way towards explaining why the GOP would not just oppose new legislation helping trans communities, but actually go so far as to pass new laws restricting their rights, as if trans people were never using bathrooms before 2018 or if there's some kind of brand new problem that requires blocking medical care for them. It makes a lot more sense to look at the opposition through the lenses of reactionary politics and polarization -- that the GOP is lashing out against trans people in anger over the progress they have made and because their rights have become a polarizing issue.
Re: Are we cut out for universal morality?
#129Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Tellingly...the scale of animal cruelty today absolutely dwarfs that of any bygone era. "Tellingly"? What does it tell? The scale of X (for almost all X) today absolutely dwarfs that of any bygone era. I wish when people say something is telling , they'd say what it tells them, but they usually don't. (It's like saying "Of course" or "Obviously". Rhetorically effective maybe, but doesn't help communication. They ar…
I should have said "scope", because I don't mean just by pure numbers. I mean that our current treatment of billions of animals is worse than it has ever been due to factory farming. As in, it's not just the sheer number of animals, we have somehow regressed and are more cruel to each individual animal in the name of efficiency. I think the only reason there is a higher percentage of vegetarians now is how widely pub…
Re: Are we cut out for universal morality?
#130Earlier quoted context omitted.
I like your example and the fundament of your message that ethical decisions being made under the same meat brain machine, but I feel like you are conflating abstract reasoning about "morals" and intuitive empathizing with "moral" behaviour. To me they don't look the same. I can say with absolute certainty that the lives of both children are morally equal, yet I can appreciate that one can not help equally in both ca…
> I can appreciate that one can not help equally in both cases. You can help them equally that is my point. One requires you to ruin your clothes by jumping in water the other requires you spending a bit of effort locating a legit charity and sending a check. Make no mistake, your capability to donate to Africa vs. jumping into water is EXACTLY the same. That is my point. The urgency is different, but that's an illus…
But in the end, I think that you didn't really address my assumption that you don't distinguish between "moral behaviour" and "theoretical moral concepts" as being different. In my mind, the later can be influenced as you said by various factors as geographical proximity, but the former can be treated as axioms of a hard science.