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It's time for us in the tech world to speak out about cryptocurrency

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Re: It's time for us in the tech world to speak out about cryptocurrency

#971

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where to start? It's not my book, but this book has a bunch of arguments: https://www.amazon.com/Attack-50-Foot-Blockchain-Contracts-e... I should have a cut-and-paste answer to this question. I actually do already, but under my real name and I don't want to dox myself. Search for my username here for some: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27210604 (some comments are "below the fold" (e.g. this comment: https://n…

Illegal activity in crypto isn't as prevalent as you may think, and it's actually on the decline: https://blog.coinbase.com/fact-check-crypto-is-increasingly-... ISIS has figured out how to get funded long before crypto was a thing. Banks already launder billions and that's harder to trace than Bitcoin transactions. And now, like it or not, crypto already exists and is here to stay, so perhaps it's better to start bu…

> Illegal activity in crypto isn't as prevalent as you may think, and it's actually on the decline:

Do you have the source study? I don't want to give my personal data to a blockchain company, and they rejected both mailinator and gmail for registration.

Re: It's time for us in the tech world to speak out about cryptocurrency

#972
post #961

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where to start? It's not my book, but this book has a bunch of arguments: https://www.amazon.com/Attack-50-Foot-Blockchain-Contracts-e... I should have a cut-and-paste answer to this question. I actually do already, but under my real name and I don't want to dox myself. Search for my username here for some: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27210604 (some comments are "below the fold" (e.g. this comment: https://n…

Oh damn, that's a long comment, let me try to answer point by point. > The core things that blockchain stuff tries to solve are not actually the hard problems. What are the hard problems though? Depending on where you stand you might see different things, but to me the hard problems are that banks throughout the world have a hard time trusting and interoperating, things are slow (payments have to go through banks cor…

> What are the hard problems though?

I mentioned this. E.g. "The hard part is codifying your intention into legalese, and conflict resolution".

But again, I would invite you to talk to some contract lawyers and see what the hard problems are in their space. And carefully listen to how they solve them, and if your cryptosolution maybe not only doesn't solve the problem, but actually makes it worse.

Especially internationally, where you maybe hire a service, but then one of the countries involved has export restrictions, or immigration requirements, or whatever else.

These blockchain things are explicitly made to "go around" all government regulations (that's why they can say it'll be cheaper and more efficient). But the companies still have to obey the law, or they'll go to jail. So no that's not the problem.

> Is your point of view that the system is perfect and doesn't need the technical improvements proposed by blockchain?

I have not seen a solution based on blockchain that solves a hard problem. Nor have I seen one that doesn't make a hard problem even harder.

E.g. when I bought a house I had to prove to the bank and various involved parties where the money came from. And then when transferring I had two people from the bank walk me through it, to make sure this 6 digit cash transfer was legit.

It was annoying, yes. But I understand why it's there. To say "oh if this had been bitcoin you could just have transferred and it would be there in an hour". Or "had this been a smart contract it would have triggered deed transfer". Ok, sure. But what if there were some legal dispute and the seller was about to lose the house? That I would essentially be buying stolen goods?

What if the house had known deficiencies that the seller provably knew about but lied about during selling? If this had been Bitcoin they could simply decline to pay me. They'd launder it in Monero, and sucks to be me.

It's easy to set yourself up to be judgement proof if your assets cannot be seized.

> Credit cards are mostly a US thing btw, I never knew about them before moving here, and even in the US reversibility is not always a thing

I've lived in two countries, neither of which are the US, and credit card extra protection is certainly not US-only.

But that was still not my point. I'm saying reversibility is a feature. That mainstream finance can deliver. And it's good, so cryptocurrencies should too. They mostly do the opposite on purpose, which shows that they are not actually making what people actually want in a currency.

> Again, there are many cryptocurrencies with very different goals and this statement can't apply to all. The statement is at least very wrong for some well-known cryptocurrencies.

zcash, I believe, makes lip service to AML/KYC, but to me as a non-ML-investigator it smells a bit loophole-y, and one that may close.

> BTW I don't think airline security is a good example.

Adam ruins everything (and I've seen it) is entertaining and informative and all, but while yes there are aspects that are security theatre, turns out many of them do add up. The hijackings of the 70s largely went away. But also, Adam's not even saying airline security is security theatre! He even enumerates four added security features that DO stop terrorists. He's talking about the TSA. And then Bruce Schneier says more relevant things.

So the sum of airline security is: good old fashioned police work, infiltration of organizations, wiretaps, anomaly detection, behavior checking (Israel does a lot of this, and the have a good track record despite the obvious targeting), TSA, passengers, air marshals, reinforced cockpit doors, etc..

So if you want to be successful, then you have to get past ALL that.

And while the TSA doesn't do much, any suicidal idiot could just get on a plane with a fullauto in his carryon. At least now he has to weigh the risk of being embarrassedly found in the security check.

So maybe he probably switches to a handgun instead of the AK47. So he's less dangerous.

> cryptocurrencies don't preclude reversing transactions, there's nothing in the technology that would prevent that

Sure. But every time someone tries to sell the benefits of cryptocurrencies they will list this as a feature. And again this is my core point: All of the features they list, are actually bugs. And if you invent a cryptocurrency without the bugs, then it doesn't actually solve anything for anyone.

> I'm not sure I understand your point. A smart contract has its code published in clear so by using it you already choose to trust and obey the code.

It's not your choice to obey an illegal contract. And it shouldn't be. That's the point of contract legality.

And the hard part of writing a contract is not the enforcement, but codifying your inner intent into a bugfree contract, signed in a legal manner.

If you hold a gun to my head and force me to sign a smart contract, and I can prove it, how can a court invalidate the contract if you refuse to sign the invalidation block?

> PoW/electricity use are things of the past for the technology

And the present. I won't celebrate prematurely.

Re: It's time for us in the tech world to speak out about cryptocurrency

#973
post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If i’m correct you can get upwards of like 5-10% interest on those platforms? Can you simply explain to me where that money comes from? That just seems like an absurd amount of interest. Considering the crypto/inflation hawk intersection, i’d presume people would be skeptical of all this “free” money?

If I'm not wrong, the average yearly ROI of something like S&P 500 has been around 7-8% over the last 70 years. Since you're French as well, I can tell you that here it gives about 4-5% in yearly returns. So it's not unheard of returns with traditional asset classes. As far as I'm aware, the money in that specific case comes from interests paid by those taking loans (from the funds that's you're putting out) or from…

EDIT : For France I meant real estate gives 4-5%, don't know why I skipped that.

Re: It's time for us in the tech world to speak out about cryptocurrency

#974
post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cryptocurrency is maybe the most important innovation is human history Electricity? The wheel? Money? Sulfa drugs? Spoken language? Counting? Agriculture? Written language? There's a long, long list and to put cryptocurrency on it seems awfully hubristic.

Money that can't be monopolized is more important than those. The whole human history is about money and how someone monopolized it and started extracting value from it, to get more powerful, to fund wars and destruction. Bitcoin can't be monopolized and enables humanity to rise on a completely new level.

Unconvinced. Electricity definitely seems like a much bigger deal. Bitcoin is going to take humanity to a new stage of existence? Here comes peak hype, I guess.

In fact, you're so breathlessly ecstatic about the cult of bitcoin that I have to wonder if I'm being spoofed...

Re: It's time for us in the tech world to speak out about cryptocurrency

#975

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused about why Bitcoin is being discussed in the past tense when both usage and price have both grown significantly over the last year. Is it already dead? Could have fooled me.

You didn't notice? This chat is mostly composed of people salty because they didn't buy when they had the chance. Oops!

I should rephrase. Just buy. If you want to get involved and contribute, please do. Money in the hands of centralized figures is very dangerous.

Re: It's time for us in the tech world to speak out about cryptocurrency

#976

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused about why Bitcoin is being discussed in the past tense when both usage and price have both grown significantly over the last year. Is it already dead? Could have fooled me.

You didn't notice? This chat is mostly composed of people salty because they didn't buy when they had the chance. Oops!

The tech world should smash buy now and contribute in every way they can to improve the technology.

Most technology companies should hold it on their balance sheets and employ a contributor.

Re: It's time for us in the tech world to speak out about cryptocurrency

#977

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the case of the Internet, people were doing either new things, or existing things more efficiently (e.g. sending emails vs. postal mail and fax, or transferring files vs. swapping disk media or printouts). As the Internet progressed, efficiency increased. In the case of cryptocurrencies, people are doing existing things that can already be done quickly and efficiently vastly less efficiently, in a system that is p…

I can send unlimited amounts of money, anywhere on earth, for (at most) dollars in a few seconds. I don't need to rely on any government for any reason, and no government can stop me.

> "and no government can stop me"

"Myanmar’s government shuts down internet indefinitely" - https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/1/22362767/myanmar-military-...

"Bangladeshi government shuts down callphone/internet access in Rohingya camps" - https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/09/13/bangladesh-internet-blac...

"Democratic Republic of the Congo shuts down internet and SMS" - https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?N...

"Indian government shuts down internet in Kashmir" - https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/08/28/india-restore-kashmirs-i...

"Iranian authorities shut down internet" - https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/11/27/iran-deliberate-coverup-...

"Independent group observes 'near-total' shutdown of Iraqi internet access" - https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/11/08/iraq-teargas-cartridges-...

"Sudan's ongoing internet shutdown" - https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/06/12/sudan-end-network-shutdo...

"China bans ICOs, shuts down domestic exchanges, and uses great firewall to block foreign exchanges and crypto websites" - https://www.yahoo.com/news/china-enlists-apos-great-firewall...

Re: It's time for us in the tech world to speak out about cryptocurrency

#978
post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Money that can't be monopolized is more important than those. The whole human history is about money and how someone monopolized it and started extracting value from it, to get more powerful, to fund wars and destruction. Bitcoin can't be monopolized and enables humanity to rise on a completely new level.

Unconvinced. Electricity definitely seems like a much bigger deal. Bitcoin is going to take humanity to a new stage of existence? Here comes peak hype, I guess. In fact, you're so breathlessly ecstatic about the cult of bitcoin that I have to wonder if I'm being spoofed...

Individual freedom and sovereignty are more important to society than electricity. I'm pretty sure you haven't thought of Bitcoin in that way, or how Bitcoin might enable this. Importance is subjective, but I think most people would choose freedom over electricity. After that, we might argue whether Bitcoin would actually be helpful in enabling this.

It's not a simple concept to explain so here's a couple of videos which might help you to understand it better.

Bitcoin Is Protecting Human Rights Around the World: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLYYh4aPXAM

Philosophy of Bitcoin from First Principles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrehEWYj16s

Re: It's time for us in the tech world to speak out about cryptocurrency

#979
post #948

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fiat money has value because it is widely, almost universally, accepted in exchange for things of intrinsic value (food, shelter, toys, tools). I'm not aware of any non-government-backed fiat currency which has gained widespread use in the history of humanity. And in fact all of the fiat currencies I know of originated as representative money. Bitcoin is not widely accepted in exchange for things of values, and I see…

Fiat money is legal tender, so "acceptance" suggests a choice that isn't there. Regardless, enforced or not, wide acceptance is of course no lie for hard fiat currencies. Fine. Bitcoin in its current form should not be seen as a payment currency, instead as digital gold. A new asset class similar to actual gold/silver, real estate, stocks, etc. Something to put part of your wealth in, hoping it appreciates over time.…

Fiat money is only legal tender in the country which issues it. You can find plenty of businesses outside the US willing to transact in USD.

Legal tender also only applies to paying public debts (i.e. taxes)... not paying a business.

Re: It's time for us in the tech world to speak out about cryptocurrency

#980

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fiat money has value because it is widely, almost universally, accepted in exchange for things of intrinsic value (food, shelter, toys, tools). I'm not aware of any non-government-backed fiat currency which has gained widespread use in the history of humanity. And in fact all of the fiat currencies I know of originated as representative money. Bitcoin is not widely accepted in exchange for things of values, and I see…

>I'm not aware of any non-government-backed fiat currency which has gained widespread use in the history of humanity. Before the 1900s the vast majority of currencies were valued based on their precious metal content (gold or silver), not government fiat.

> me: And in fact all of the fiat currencies I know of originated as representative money.

> you: Before the 1900s the vast majority of currencies were valued based on their precious metal content (gold or silver), not government fiat.

ORLY? I didn't know that. Oh wait I literally said it in the comment you replied to.

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