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What Oxford taught me about posh people

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Re: What Oxford taught me about posh people

#171

Post by simonh »

vr46 wrote: post #97

I am acquainted with a disproportionate number of Oxbridge grads, mainly through my old school, which has always targeted those universities for its boys. While everyone is smart and pleasant, there is the constant reinforcement that Oxbridge grads seek each other out throughout their lives to almost exclusively hang out with each other. I mean, as towns they're not exactly next door, but in London there is the joint…

I'm friends with a gang of three Oxford graduates, who met each other there in the 80s. I know them through mutual interests and like minded mutual friends. They're just part of the gang, get on with everyone regardless of background.

What you do notice though, is they absolutely know how to work their asses off. They're constantly organising things, writing stuff, offering to edit and help develop other people's work, coming up with new ideas and sharing them. They know how to dig deep into a topic and root out the interesting, fun and unexpected, and do something with it.

There are other people in the community who are much the same, it's a very collaborative community. It's not that they're the only people who stand out, but they're right up there.

Re: What Oxford taught me about posh people

#172

Post by mrpopo »

WalterBright wrote: post #142
mrpopo wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the US isn't a good example of a country where people have a fair chance at success in life IMO.

The US raised scores of millions of immigrants from poverty to the middle class. Poor people immigrated to the US, people with nothing but a suitcase. The US has seen the most spectacular rise from poverty to wealth ever seen in history. In WW1, for example, the German soldiers knew they had lost when the Americans arrived, well equipped, tall, and fat with food. The Japanese soldiers had a similar reaction when faci…

> The US has seen the most spectacular rise from poverty to wealth ever seen in history.

This is not true, historians collectively agree that Korea has seen the most spectacular rise.

Also, your comment was spectacularly off-topic and anachronistic. A country being a manufacturing powerhouse during WW2 doesn't mean that immigrants have a fair chance today. First they need to be able to enter, then they need to be able to succeed. That's the topic.

Re: What Oxford taught me about posh people

#173

Post by iso1631 »

coffeecat wrote: post #136
deanCommie wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's always going to be unfair. Can I ask you a question without I swear any implicit judgement. Do you gravitate towards conservative politicians? Because I'm finding that this is the main distinction between Progressive and Conservative-minded people in today's western society. You can account for religion (there are religious leftists and atheist rightists). You can account for racism (there are plenty of racist…

> Progressive people believe that society is not fair but could be. Conservatives believe it is not possible, and it's silly to even try. Having recently decided that I dislike leftist politics and that I align more with right-wing politics (in theory, if not in practice), the thing that switched in my mind is: why does it matter whether or not society is fair? I think that's the wrong question; I don't see any intri…

> how can we improve our average level of well-being

What average?

MEAN:

Two systems of 100 people

System 1: 1 person with $10m and 99 people with nothing (mean=100k)

System 2: 100 people with $50k (mean=50k)

The latter is far far better despite on mean being worse.

MEDIAN:

Two systems of 100 people

System 1: 51 person with $1m and 49 people with nothing (median=$1m)

System 2: 100 people with $250k (median=250k)

The latter is better despite median being worse.

If you want to decide if a system is fair or not, think which system you'd like to live in if you rolled a D10 and ended up being born into the decile you landed in. Roll a 10 in america and it's great. Roll a 1 and you're collecting cans and hoping you don't get an ingrowing toenail.

Re: What Oxford taught me about posh people

#174

Post by iso1631 »

WalterBright wrote: post #144
coffeecat wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Progressive people believe that society is not fair but could be. Conservatives believe it is not possible, and it's silly to even try. Having recently decided that I dislike leftist politics and that I align more with right-wing politics (in theory, if not in practice), the thing that switched in my mind is: why does it matter whether or not society is fair? I think that's the wrong question; I don't see any intri…

You can never make life fair for someone who is disabled. I wouldn't trade my health for a billion dollars. There are endless people taller, smarter, faster, younger, handsomer, healthier, etc., than me. Obsessing over the implicit and inevitable unfairness of that is a total waste of time and energy. More generally, no two people are the same. It's not possible to make it fair even for two people, let alone billions…

> I wouldn't trade my health for a billion dollars.

That's a decision that thousands of americans make every year they can't afford the healthcare they need to keep them healthy.

Those that can still work ridiculous hours damaging their health for far less than $1b - https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/29/opinion/work-hours-us-hea...

Re: What Oxford taught me about posh people

#175

Post by collyw »

mrpopo wrote: post #139
WalterBright wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US Constitution says nothing about things being fair. It talks a lot about rights, though, which is what freedom is about. Note that we have a right to equal treatment under the law, but that is not the same thing as a right to fair treatment.

And the US isn't a good example of a country where people have a fair chance at success in life IMO.

Large parts of the world would love the chance to have the opportunities provided in the US despite this unfairness.

Re: What Oxford taught me about posh people

#176

Post by collyw »

WalterBright wrote: post #146
TchoBeer wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds rather defeatist. Is it impossible to make work, life, or social structure more fair? I doubt you think that.

Now that you mention it, the USSR did make many things more fair. They did it by hammering everyone down to the bottom.

That's more equal, is denying people the opportunity to rise actually more fair?

Re: What Oxford taught me about posh people

#177

Post by teachingassist »

WalterBright wrote: post #142
mrpopo wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the US isn't a good example of a country where people have a fair chance at success in life IMO.

The US raised scores of millions of immigrants from poverty to the middle class. Poor people immigrated to the US, people with nothing but a suitcase. The US has seen the most spectacular rise from poverty to wealth ever seen in history. In WW1, for example, the German soldiers knew they had lost when the Americans arrived, well equipped, tall, and fat with food. The Japanese soldiers had a similar reaction when faci…

> The US raised scores of millions of immigrants from poverty to the middle class.

Emphasis here is on the past tense.

There are several reasons to challenge this:

1. The USA had (and still has) unprecedented resources per population. Why is your claim not still the case?

2. Immigrants tend to be people with the means to immigrate. That's rarely people in relative poverty, unless you intended to mean slaves.

Re: What Oxford taught me about posh people

#178

Post by collyw »

djrobstep wrote: post #124
WalterBright wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Work, life, and social structure is extremely unfair It's always going to be unfair. Attempts to fix it always result in some other unfairness. The real thing that works is freedom, i.e. not having the law artificially holding you back. Instead of being consumed by envy of others, you can make your own life better.

[flagged]

Nordic countries are capitalist

Re: What Oxford taught me about posh people

#179

Post by collyw »

deanCommie wrote: post #123
WalterBright wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Work, life, and social structure is extremely unfair It's always going to be unfair. Attempts to fix it always result in some other unfairness. The real thing that works is freedom, i.e. not having the law artificially holding you back. Instead of being consumed by envy of others, you can make your own life better.

> It's always going to be unfair. Can I ask you a question without I swear any implicit judgement. Do you gravitate towards conservative politicians? Because I'm finding that this is the main distinction between Progressive and Conservative-minded people in today's western society. You can account for religion (there are religious leftists and atheist rightists). You can account for racism (there are plenty of racist…

As someone that has moved from fairly hard left to centre (though probably considered far right by some), to me the difference is that progressives think they can make the world better, conservatives think that such actions are likely to make things worse. Thomas Sowell brings a lot of evidence based arguments to such discussions.

Re: What Oxford taught me about posh people

#180

Post by anoncake »

chcknsammich wrote: post #169
anoncake wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Neither claim has foundation. I'm sorry. Did you just claim that getting 1000€ would improve the quality of life of Jeff Bezos, you and me, and a beggar on the street, by an equal amount? > Freedom has many meanings. I made it clear which meaning I refer to, and it isn't the one you're using. And yours is very idiosyncratic. And mostly redundant with "market economy", except a market economy doesn't technically req…

> I'm sorry. Did you just claim that getting 1000€ would improve the quality of life of Jeff Bezos, you and me, and a beggar on the street, by an equal amount? Jeff Bezos does not buy bread with every incremental thousand dollars. He builds institutions that provide bread for a cent cheaper to millions of people. The assumption that you can equate these utilities is exactly the fallacy that caused so many to starve i…

> Jeff Bezos does not buy bread with every incremental thousand dollars. He builds institutions that provide bread for a cent cheaper to millions of people.

Or possibly builds rockets and other vanity projects. Or bribes politicians. Whereas if that money was used to buy bread, it would definitely end up at a bread making company.

> The assumption that you can equate these utilities is exactly the fallacy that caused so many to starve in Russia and China.

In a discussion about economics, the probability that someone will bring up the Eastern Block and ascribe all its ills to whatever happens to be the not orthodoxly capitalist position being discussed somehow even exceeds the probability of someone bringing up Hitler.

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