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Wikipedia is swimming in money–why is it begging people to donate?

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Re: Wikipedia is swimming in money–why is it begging people to donate?

#551
post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lemme know when you've outcompeted a free product advertised on Google home page that Google considers a strategic priority, then I'll listen to everything you have to say about how it's Mozilla's mismanagement that caused the decline of Firefox. Once Chrome was a priority for Google, Firefox stood no chance no matter the funding.

You misunderstand me. I don't think Mozilla's mismanagement was responsible for Firefox's decline in market share, although it probably can't have helped. My concern is that now that that decline has happened, for one reason or another, Mozilla's mismanagement of their finances means the entire existence of Firefox is at risk, along with the seat at the web standards table that it represents.

If Mozilla didn't obtain and spend all that funding, Firefox would have been obsolete years ago. Google spends bazillions on Chrome, you can't compete with that on a shoestring budget.

Re: Wikipedia is swimming in money–why is it begging people to donate?

#552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I would host a site like Wikipedia on a single server, I'm saying that it's more than possible. Also, don't assume I'm speaking from a position of ignorance here, I know more than a little about how Wikipedia works. I've perused the source, played with the database dumps, etc... I find comments like yours amusing, because I hear similar things in the industry all the time! People…

> Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I would host a site like Wikipedia on a single server, I'm saying that it's more than possible. This is incorrect. Many of the numbers you throw out ignore that in order to serve its content a server must do some work, which requires both CPU time and memory. Assuming you were able to eliminate hard drives and fit everything into RAM, you still have the problem that to serve re…

Obviously I'm not being serious about hosting Wikipedia on just 3 servers. That would be a nightmare for maintenance and availability management. My point is that you could physically host their content on just one server, and nothing you have said counters that.

Who cares if Blackblaze -- a backup company -- uses hard drives? Of course they do! They're not hosting Wikipedia though. My point was by using current-generation COTS hardware, it is entirely possible to host a huge website on a single box. It is. It really is. This is not about what other people generally do. This is about what is possible!

You keep getting bogged down by the practicalities of real-world site management. For the sake of argument, if I were to engineer a serious solution for this problem, I would be looking at hardware more like what Cloudflare uses for their edge cache boxes. They did the legwork to find the sweet spot for price/performance. This is typically a single-socket server with a 48-core AMD EPYC processor and 100 Gbps Ethernet. This CPU model is much cheaper than the 64-core flagship, but has the same amount of cache. (They're made from the same 8-core chiplets, but with 2 cores fused of due to defects.)

In these servers I would use PCI-e quad port NVMe adapters, as you said. The capacity requirements aren't as high as you think either, because the content can be sharded. The 5.6 TB number is for english Wikipedia, not all of Wikipedia + Wikimedia as a whole! So those 4x 8 TB cards are more than sufficient. Heck, even 4x 2 TB is enough for a while. The trick here is to apply some sort of lightweight compression on the text. That 5.6 TB compresses down to just 100 GB! In practice, you could easily get better than 3:1 ratios even with a very fast compressor set to "light" compression.

Then I would distribute these servers around the globe, with about 3 per location. One for english, with the other two for all the other languages. Each server would have a local, read-only replica of the language-specific databases with asynchronous streaming from the master copy.

I'd distribute this to about 5 regional locations, and nominate one server per language as the "write master" where updates occur. So for each language you'd have 1x read/write and 4x read-only. These would be at different locations, so for example German wikipedia would have the read/write replica in Germany. English would be at some US east-coast location. Etc...

Then you'd need some boxes for nonproduction test, dev, etc...

All of the remote edge servers would be load balanced using a DNS-based method, with no local load balancers. The servers' 100 Gbps ports would be directly connected to the peering routers, the same way Cloudflare and the like does it. This would add up to 1.5 TBps of traffic that you really could physically serve (5 x 3 x 100 Gbps).

Overall, the entire platform could be handled by something like 20-25 servers. That's it.

Now, I tell a small lie: Wikipedia hosts only the text! WikiMedia has the pictures, which don't compress well and requie much more disk space. This is best served with technology similar to AWS S3, which can be replicated with open source software and some boxes packed with hard drives. But again, you're probably overestimating the capacity required, and underestimating how much you can pack into a server these days.

Just to reiterate: the above is predicated upon having an efficient codebase, and Wikipedia isn't currently efficient enough to make this possible. It would take a rewrite of the code to achieve this, and that would cost more than their current hardware, so it doesn't make financial sense. Most web sites are in a similar situation, which is perhaps why your perspective is skewed: Your expectations of software performance capability might be off by a few orders of magnitude!

Re: Wikipedia is swimming in money–why is it begging people to donate?

#553
post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wikipedia is not a dot-com. And their executive compensation is hardly "sky-high"; it amounts to a FAANG middle manager 's salary, for a positive impact on the world that's easily as high as that of any FAANG.

For others interested in this, Wikimedia salaries are all public [0]. [0] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_salarie...

Since they dont have any Sub Coordinate, it seems those C title are basically doing everything themselves.

Edit: I think that Salaries are for Top Executive only. There are 450 [1] in Wikimedia. In the case 55M isn't that much.

[1] https://wikimediafoundation.org/role/staff-contractors/

Re: Wikipedia is swimming in money–why is it begging people to donate?

#554

Outrage where there is no reason for it. Wikipedia is using the University Endowment model to fund its work. They are creating a permanent source of funds that will finance its work for the long run(forever?) and are using special fund raising for special projects. There is nothing wrong with that. It's a form of non-profit funding that will ensure it continues to function. Management should be congratulated for foll…

[deleted]

Re: Wikipedia is swimming in money–why is it begging people to donate?

#555
post #168

I don’t understand the hate here. Wikipedia clearly states that the point of donations is to create an endowment . They need to get enough money for their principal to generate enough money to ensure the project can live even in case of black swan events. [1] They are still a long way from being independent from donors given their growth in projects, paid contributors (employees) and therefore expenses. If you don’t…

> Wikipedia clearly states

Where? This thread is the first time I remember reading about this, and I've seen a lot of Wikipedia beg-nags. They moved from outrageously deceptive messages that strongly implied that the lights would go out without my donation and that the donations were used to keep Wikipedia alive "for another year" [1], to slightly more vague "keep Wikipedia online and growing" [2] banners.

Never did I see those banners mention an endowment.

[1] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/2012v201...

[2] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3a/Mob-lg-s...

Re: Wikipedia is swimming in money–why is it begging people to donate?

#556
post #507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> are you arguing the Wikipedia should hire cheaper developers because they are a non-profit? > You are disparaging a CEO for making 350k/year for one of the highest trafficked sites in the world The root of the question is: what determines compensation at companies? FAANG and SV startups are able to offer huge salaries not because they are "the highest trafficked sites in the world". It's because they rake in billio…

> The root of the question is: what determines compensation at companies? So let's say I start a company selling cars. I decide to sell my cars for $1. It's a terrible business model, and I don't make much money. So according to you, because my company makes no money, I should be allowed to pay my staff way under market. This doesn't make sense to me, despite being obviously illegal. The amount of money you paid for…

It has little to do with social status, and everything to do with your implicit assumption that SV salaries are the tech world's equivalent of minimum wage. In reality, SV salaries are the highest in the tech world, not the lowest. Not paying SV salaries is not equivalent to "paying your stuff under market", because SV is not the market -- it's the highest-paying corner of the market.

The better analogy here is GoldBurger, which is a very successful burger chain that sells gold-plated $200 burgers and pays its employees $100/hr. Would it then be reasonable for my local mom-and-pop burger joint, where the most expensive burger costs $5, to compete with GoldBurger on salary? Would the cashiers making only $20/hr at my local joint be paid "way under market" just because GoldBurger exists?

The fact that GoldBurger exists and can create very well-paying jobs for its cashiers doesn't mean that suddenly the entire base of the market rises up to match it. It just means that, all else being equal, it's entirely possible that potential employees will go with GoldBurger rather than my local joint, if given the choice, and the local joint will have to hire other folks. If every burger joint was like GoldBurger, my local joint would be in trouble. But that doesn't tend to be the case, and it isn't the case in the tech world, either.

Re: Wikipedia is swimming in money–why is it begging people to donate?

#557
post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You misunderstand me. I don't think Mozilla's mismanagement was responsible for Firefox's decline in market share, although it probably can't have helped. My concern is that now that that decline has happened, for one reason or another, Mozilla's mismanagement of their finances means the entire existence of Firefox is at risk, along with the seat at the web standards table that it represents.

If Mozilla didn't obtain and spend all that funding, Firefox would have been obsolete years ago. Google spends bazillions on Chrome, you can't compete with that on a shoestring budget.

Mozilla did NOT spend the money on Firefox. You did hear how they fired their core engineers recently, didn't you?

Re: Wikipedia is swimming in money–why is it begging people to donate?

#558

Outrage where there is no reason for it. Wikipedia is using the University Endowment model to fund its work. They are creating a permanent source of funds that will finance its work for the long run(forever?) and are using special fund raising for special projects. There is nothing wrong with that. It's a form of non-profit funding that will ensure it continues to function. Management should be congratulated for foll…

> There is nothing wrong with that.

The wrong part is that this is not disclosed anywhere discoverable. While they toned down how blatant their claims were, as the article shows, their banners still create the impression that they're struggling to just barely stay alive, not building an endowment.

I've looked into Wikimedia's finances before and completely missed the endowment.

Take a look at https://wikimediafoundation.org/about/annualreport/2020-annu... - I see no mention of money going from Wikimedia to the Endowment. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/foundation/f/f7/Wikim... mentions it in passing among other examples of their project work.

Re: Wikipedia is swimming in money–why is it begging people to donate?

#559
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about you keep your 10 bucks and stop using Wikipedia rather than suggesting ads? Please.

The main value of wikipedia has been provided not by the wikipedia foundation, but by the volunteers who write the articles on wikipedia. My work on wikipedia articles is for the benefit of my fellow humans, not to allow some organisation to start implying that everyone has a moral obligation to give them money. That was never part of the deal when I contributed my work.

After the whole Fram situation, my trust in the WMF's direction and leadership is pretty much non-existent. That told me all I need to know about their priorities and ethics.

Re: Wikipedia is swimming in money–why is it begging people to donate?

#560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany and Scandinavia maybe. In France, Spain, Italy, etc, this is normal. For example here [1] you can see some reliable statistics for France, see page 2 (it's in French but the plots are easy to understand). The median salary (annual before taxes) when starting is 35k€, and roughly increases by 1800€/year. So it only reaches 40k€ after 3 years. It reaches 50k€ after 8 years only. Also all engineers have Maste…

Sorry I assumed we're talking about Software Engineering here, I accept your point. But Italy and Spain aren't really what I would consider Western Europe, they are the less developed parts and I admit I have no experience with France and know nobody who works there.

So... The UK is not part of EU, and you're not counting Italy and Spain, and don't know anybody in France so can't speak for that country... Yet you're arguing for western EU salaries...? I can only sense you having some knowledge of Germany from your comments.
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