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NSA spying row: Denmark helped US gather data on European officials, says report

bbc.com

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Re: NSA spying row: Denmark helped US gather data on European officials, says report

#161
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not sure to what extent I should consider this to be problematic. Okay, I'll help you: By doing this shit, the US is losing goodwill and Germans will align more with Russia, e.g. by building pipelines instead of buying US gas. Russia is a long-term threat to the expansion plans of the EU and is hindering us at creating a true union across all of Europe. The US is a threat to our economy. China is becoming our b…

With multicultural societies who knows what the sum of cultural alignments ends up as, combined with shallow consumer culture, where anything can align to anything as long it has a cheap price tag and a nice packaging, US-Europe cultural alignment will be in the near future a thing of the past.

[deleted]

Re: NSA spying row: Denmark helped US gather data on European officials, says report

#162

The system as currently designed in most Western democracies (Denmark and the USA included) puts the intelligence agencies under the oversight of elected officials. You can't put intelligence operations to a public referendum without revealing critical information. So the people trust their elected officials to be the select few who get to see what is going on and keep a secret, but also act in the country's interest…

I kind of get tehe argument, but at the same time my thinfoil hat says, that newly elected officials during talk with FE get the message "we will leak and/or fabricate your xyz, if you make a move against us".

Re: NSA spying row: Denmark helped US gather data on European officials, says report

#163
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Private institutions are even less accountable. I don’t see an alternative for advanced civilization right now.

Every organization needs mechanisms to root out corruption, not just hope and prayers. Transparency, accountability, rule of law are just the start. You need to design checks and balances, internal policing mechanisms, accounting for every dollar, processes to eliminate conflicts of interest, self-dealing, cronyism, etc. Sadly, it seems that these institutions are prone to a kind of rot that means you can't just set…

It also doesn’t help that newsrooms have been totally gutted by the loss of advertising revenues. This is particularly acute at the local level, where traditionally you had local newspaper staff at meetings for local councils, but these have largely disappeared in a lot of places.

Re: NSA spying row: Denmark helped US gather data on European officials, says report

#165
post #8

I still wonder, what happens if other countries like China, Russia spy on other governments and are disclosed? They will be embargoed by US. But why there is nothing happens when US spying other countries? Because US does it with good manner and good intention?

Spying among allies has more impact than you think. There are similar levels of public outrage, but obviously you can't boycot allies without damaging relations more. So measures won't be pubically visual. But it will lead to a degraded confidence and all kinds of cooperation will be reduced and cold shouldering will happen. However subtle and only when a countries own interest is not hurt too much.

Re: NSA spying row: Denmark helped US gather data on European officials, says report

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The word democracy derives from the Greek words for ‘People’ - ‘Demos’ and ‘Power’ - ‘-cracy’. So, literally: ‘people power’ or ‘power of/to or government of the people by the people’. Originally, very roughly speaking, it was an alternative form of government to being ruled by tyrants. If you are seriously disparaging one of the many forms in which human beings have tried to implement some form of democracy, arguabl…

The Greek concept of democracy looked nothing like the modern republic. A Greek democracy did not elect legislators: that function belonged to the people assembled as a whole. Nor did it elect ordinary magistrates, who were instead selected by random lot from lists of willing volunteers in a process now called "sortition." The rationale behind sortition relied on the notion that the ordinary business of government wa…

As you suggest, ancient Athenian democracy bore little resemblance to modern forms of representative democracy and no doubt appears very limited/odd to modern sensibilities. What you wrote doesn’t make what I stated about the derivation of the word any less true though: https://www.etymonline.com/word/democracy All forms of democracy so far have been hefty compromises in one way or another and so will all be in the future, short of some sort of technological marvel I suppose. Different countries, constitutions etc. rebalance the mechanisms in one way or another, as more or less direct/representative forms of democracy inevitably have consequent drawbacks... Parliamentary democracies, republican democracies etc./all the various voting mechanisms etc., all are compromises designed to try and strike some sort of balance or confer some practical advantage. You can argue that some are antiquated, some unfit for purpose, but most IMHO. are better than the alternative. The fundamental problem with oligarchies/tyrannies/polyarchy/plutarchies/‘pick-your-archy’ is surely that you might (and almost inevitably eventually will) get a bad apple/apples. ‘Absolute power corrupts absolutely’ etc. As I understand it, the U.S. is a kind of republic (a ‘federal presidential constitutional republic’ according to Wikipedia :) and Madison/Jefferson/the founding ‘dudes’ tried to strike some, as they viewed it, balance between representative democracy and an appointed/elected executive, as you’re no doubt aware… You can argue it was/is deeply flawed and that their efforts to avoid partisan politics/entrenched political parties have failed/there are many problems with lobbying groups/corruption etc., but I would suggest that there exists at least some opportunity to debate and consequently change representatives/legislate a hopefully better way of doing things? It beats the alternative/being arbitrarily ruled by a bonkers king/some tinpot dictator/absolute/hereditary monarch! Perhaps the democratic process ought to always be a work-in-progress, a compromise that we tweak and balance with other mechanisms to eg. protect minority rights or to provide long-term stability and short-term effective and efficient decision-making through discussion rather than dictat? I would suggest that there are decisions best taken at a very direct/local level and others that are best dealt with globally/even on a more technocratic basis… The voters ideally should be educated enough to be able to thoroughly understand the process and enabled and enfranchised wherever possible to engage with it fully… “Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…” - from a speech in the Commons by Winston Churchill (a man with many imperfections! :) https://richardlangworth.com/worst-form-of-government

Re: NSA spying row: Denmark helped US gather data on European officials, says report

#168
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please correct your self. Huawei spying is a scam. No evidence whatsoever. This is reality. Confirmed multiple times and corroborated. Let's not drag a perfect fine private company to the same level of shadiness of the most corrupted national government.

Please don’t treat the comments like a battleground for your irrelevant CCP crusade. I have read your comment history and it’s fairly obvious what you’re here for. It turns the HN comments to a hostile place.

If you read my comments, you'll understand nothing what I am here for.

Of course I present facades posting here. If you think what the comments represent one thing or another, then that's just your mind interpreting one aspect of the comments.

BTW, put your words into action, citing any of my old comments that prove your point. I have no idea myself what those comments could be interpreted by a stranger. A good opportunity for me to calibrate. Thanks in advance!

Re: NSA spying row: Denmark helped US gather data on European officials, says report

#169
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Squarcini might have a bit of a bias towards minimizing the importance of that kind of spying, since France is one of the most aggressive state-sponsors of industrial espionage, after China and the US. But the gist of the article is "yeah, of course they're going to do it, if we give them the opportunity". We european countries really shouldn't be giving the US so much opportunity to spy on us.

> France is one of the most aggressive state-sponsors of industrial espionage, after China and the US. That's the kind of thing you can't just write out of nowhere without any reference.

I admit that's something I said without thorough research. It's just something that pops up in discussions about industrial espionage, or about the DGSE, or about the french military-industrial complex.

A quick search gives me this article as evidence: https://www.france24.com/en/20110104-france-industrial-espio...

But I admit I don't have strong reference to back my statement up.

Re: NSA spying row: Denmark helped US gather data on European officials, says report

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There's no reason why this should not hold for spying and policing agencies Isn't that what democracies call "constitution"? Something that protects citizens' rights again wrong-doing of powerful entities including legislators and the state itself?

And how's thats working out so far?

Well, to the best of my knowledge, in most countries, the constitutions themselves suggest some actions to the people in the case somebody is not complying with the constitution. Did we see any of those suggested countermeasures taking place?
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