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Overkill objects for everyday life

neil.computer

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Re: Overkill objects for everyday life

#691

Post by abeppu »

yourapostasy wrote: post #553
abeppu wrote: post #85

> The average consumer wants this stuff. It sells. They want pizzaz over functionality and durability. What is functionality though? What is pizzaz? When are they the same and when are they different? E.g. the famous Emeco 1006 chair, which won a contract to supply the US Navy by being thrown out a window and not breaking. It became a design classic, and now sells for $600 each. It gained a kind of following, which i…

> But is that durability especially functional for your home or restaurant environment which isn't on a warship? If I knew it would be handed down for generations of my descendants, then I absolutely want that durability. A tremendous amount of economic and environmental harm comes from unnecessary product acquisition churn over generations at the scales of populations we're currently dealing with. If I can equip my…

Wanting to buy goods that last a lifetime or four seems like a good motivation, and I agree that it's harmful that we build crap that we fully expect to be thrown away in 5 years.

However ... there's plenty of solid hardwood furniture which can survive multiple generations of regular use, but which would not survive being pitched from an upper floor window. And arguably, depending on sourcing, wood has a better environmental footprint of aluminum, which involves open pit mines and energy-intensive refining.

Re: Overkill objects for everyday life

#692

Post by aflag »

MonaroVXR wrote: post #671
aflag wrote: post #668

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My work laptop is a dell 7420, my personal one is a dell xps 13. I can't come up with one thing that's better in the latitude laptop. Maybe it has a usb port? But that's irrelevant while docking and on the go, everything is either bluetooth or usb-c these days.

> I can't come up with one thing that's better in the latitude laptop. Which is totally fair, everything is fair. I'm not a negative person. (I think.)

That's nice. I just wanted to know what makes it a better machine. Maybe I'm doing something wrong.

Re: Overkill objects for everyday life

#693

Post by BeFlatXIII »

kube-system wrote: post #501
TeMPOraL wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, we hate value engineering because of this bifurcation (it's real, and I've been whining about it for a while too). But I see it somewhat differently than you described: > value-engineered wares for people who don’t care You say it like there is a choice involved here. There isn't. This is something that needs repeating - customers choose out of what's available on the market, not out of the space of all possible…

If the missing-middle is, in fact, a real consumer desire, then you’re identified a market failure that might be a good startup idea. And I’m not saying this sarcastically, many wildly successful businesses have been built on finding untapped markets that established players have missed. There is always room for improvement. The question is whether that improvement is strong enough to change people’s buying decisions…

Even if the missing middle is a real consumer demand, it may not be enough of a real demand to achieve the economics of scale to be profitable (or it is profitable but with 15% margin instead of 30% and the bean counters can’t stand that).

Re: Overkill objects for everyday life

#694

Post by neonological »

yourapostasy wrote: post #690
neonological wrote: post #524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Design is also an engineering constraint. All of these constraints are interconnected. None are wholly independent. Did I say they weren't interdependent? My response to you LITERALLY stated an interdependency. Also when does "design" being an engineering constraint have to do with anything? Are you talking about aesthetic design choices made by an artist/product designer that an engineer has to take into account?…

I've learned through experience that people like kube-system are blinkered in this context [1], and best routed around. This is usually by conscious but not obtusely malicious choice. The shrugged-shoulders, learned-helplessness, "of course it's that way, what can anyone do about it" choice. This is the mass-market default, I wouldn't get too worked up over it; you won't convince them of a position until it benefits…

>I'm carefully trying NOT to slight kube-system here. There is only so much attention any one individual can apply to any given context. The situation could easily be reversed between kube-system and you in a different context. We need cognitive density in all the wide-ranging human endeavors our species engages in, there is room enough for everyone.

In the arena of the internet I wouldn't worry too much about slighting people. It's all fair game, they can "slight" you too. This necessity to be overly polite over moderately polite so you can avoid hurting someones precious feelings is overblown on the internet. First of all the feeling will pass, second of all it's the internet, you're anonymous so the chances of permanent damage is basically zero.

Worrying about slighting someone hinders you from getting your point across, it also stops the other party from emotionally engaging with you. Conflict often fuels the fire of a debate giving the opponent incentive to try to expose every single logical flaw in your argument.

The internet is the perfect arena for this kind of heated discussion. It also goes both ways. If I have a wrong idea that I think is right, by god I will fight for that idea to be right until all possible logical alternatives are decimated and even then I'll only admit that I'm wrong 5 years later. Still my efforts allowed the other party to strengthen their arguments and expose flaws in my arguments and the discussion is open to public record. Even more important my attempts at vindicating myself could actually expose a real flaw in other parties argument, thereby maintaining a healthy dose of scientific doubt.

My philosophy is don't try to deny your own human bias. Be aware of it, and revel in it. You and others were naturally selected to have this bias because it helped you survive. Trying to deny it and be above this base emotion could hinder your competitiveness in the game of life.

Re: Overkill objects for everyday life

#695

Post by TeMPOraL »

BeFlatXIII wrote: post #693
kube-system wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the missing-middle is, in fact, a real consumer desire, then you’re identified a market failure that might be a good startup idea. And I’m not saying this sarcastically, many wildly successful businesses have been built on finding untapped markets that established players have missed. There is always room for improvement. The question is whether that improvement is strong enough to change people’s buying decisions…

Even if the missing middle is a real consumer demand, it may not be enough of a real demand to achieve the economics of scale to be profitable (or it is profitable but with 15% margin instead of 30% and the bean counters can’t stand that).

Exactly. There's a ratchet effect to this. Economies of scale mean it's easier to keep something going than it is to start it anew once it's gone.

Re: Overkill objects for everyday life

#696

Post by jeffreyrogers »

Ekaros wrote: post #315
jeffreyrogers wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is due to the reliability of rifles now though?

Trench warfare and massed charges really aren't much of a thing any more. And if you really end up in close quarter combat it's much better to retreat and do something else.

Yes, I know that. But knife kills weren't uncommon in Vietnam. They are now. I think partly because rifles are more reliable.

Re: Overkill objects for everyday life

#697

Post by BeFlatXIII »

franga2000 wrote: post #625
BeFlatXIII wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

…and all the time you’re not having your MacBook in for repair, its trackpad is still night & day better than its competitors. This was true in 2009 and somehow remains true in 2021 (though it would be a very pleasant surprise to be proven wrong)

I've heard the latest Surface lineup and the XPS 13 have trackpads that seriously rival Apple's. Up until a few years ago, however, it was true that nothing came close to Apple. Although personally, the lack of a touchscreen on any of Apple's laptops is much more of a dealbreaker for me and despite working remotely, I really don't use a trackpad for work all that often. I imagine RSI would be unavoidable if you used…

I’ll have to test those out the next time I’m in a store with an electronics department. I don’t have any desire to re-learn Windows as my main OS, but having some hand-on demo would still be more than the approximately zero Windows usage I’ve had in the past 5 years.

I never considered the RSI angle about the attraction of touch screens. I still have exactly zero desire to do serious work on a touchscreen where I’d have my fingerprints overlapping the display. Plus, I imagine touchscreens would be less ergonomic than a trackpad in a normal laptop form factor.

Re: Overkill objects for everyday life

#698

Post by vladTheInhaler »

antisceptic wrote: post #430
IgorPartola wrote: post #341

I will postulate an opposing view to TFA: Quality consumer goods are better in two key areas. First, they are replaceable. I don’t want a military grade mixer in my kitchen if getting a broken whisk or motor on it is going to require me hunting all over eBay for the specific part hoping it’s available. I was very excited at one point about the idea of getting a commercial dishwasher that can run a load of dishes in l…

I don't think the "military" grade stuff is meant to last considerably longer. It's mostly geared at extreme duty cycles. How often will you use a mixer if you're not a baker, once a week? An industrial piece of equipment is intended to be used nearly all the time, and there's impressive engineering that goes into handling that use case. Which I think was the point of TFA: he wants to show everyone he appreciates ove…

I think you have a good point. The trick is to consider the device or object not on its own, but in the context of the organization.

Large organizations like the military would probably be happier with an item that needs intensive inspection, servicing, and repairs on a very consistent schedule, but is absolutely guaranteed to work within that operational window than they they would be with an item which is low-maintenance but has an unreliable service lifetime. A maintenance schedule can be planned around and budgeted around so that it doesn't affect operations. A random outage or failure is expensive, and can only be planned around in a probabilistic sense.

As individuals, we don't have the time or knowledge to do all of the inspections and repairs to maintain an "industrial grade" system at a level that makes it worthwhile. We need stuff that "just works" for some unspecified amount of time, and we accept the cost of random failure and replacement as a tradeoff, since most failures in our lives don't involve the loss of human life or millions of dollars. The exceptions, like cars, tend to be engineered more like the former category, and can only really function reliably in the context of a larger organization (regular maintenance at a specialized repair shop).

So it's not really a spectrum of quality from cheap and unreliable to expensive and indestructible. It's actually a spectrum of logistical overhead from individual use and low upkeep to multinational organization and high upkeep.

Re: Overkill objects for everyday life

#699

Post by jasonwatkinspdx »

bombcar wrote: post #519
jasonwatkinspdx wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're spot on. I've dated several chefs, and the reality is that "professional grade" in consumer kitchen devices is basically all a fantasy/farce. Real commercial equipment is generally a huge PITA. It's quite capable stuff, but you don't need those capabilities at home, and everything else about them makes them a net negative, in nearly every case. The other obnoxious thing is most of what's marketed as "professio…

The one thing so far that I’ve found amazing is the restaurant-style sink. Huge like a beast and you can wash a small car in it.

The quirky thing I'll put in my future kitchen remodel is a pedal activated faucet on the sink.

Re: Overkill objects for everyday life

#700

Post by ksec »

theshrike79 wrote: post #607
kovvy wrote: post #499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Research is also hampered by non-obvious changes in the product. Even when a good, reliable product is released, it can be modified to be cheaper to make/more expensive to maintain with no external indication. This isn't even necessarily about cost-cutting, a component may no longer be available and is swapped for something that claims to be identical but is not as reliable.

Case in point: AvE dissecting a Made in Japan Makita drill, made for the Japanese market: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2EpdRN2h6A This thing is built like a fucking tank, it will never ever ever fail. Compare that to the same model sold outside of Japan, and it's most likely made in Indonesia and the quality is nowhere near.

Holy Shit! Thanks for introducing me to his Channel. Lots of exciting stuff.

( And somehow he is Canadian but speaks a little Cantonese )

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