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Are we cut out for universal morality?

nautil.us

41–50 of 137 posts

Re: Are we cut out for universal morality?

#41
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well in this case we can make the aliens I'm talking to part of the other tribe. Down with the aliens.

I think what Enginerrrd is calling psychotic is that there's no way to, as you say, "make someone part of the same tribe" without employing a great deal of force to coerce (and crush) people.

I didn't intent to say we need to "crush" people into changing, rather the definition of our tribes should change.

You know, when a president says "we gotta unite the nation" in a speech, that's kinda what they're trying to do. Except just saying "oh yeah, let's unite" falls quite short of achieving that goal.

But no, it's not about coercing and crushing anyone.

Re: Are we cut out for universal morality?

#42
post #25
post #6

I know she is divisive, but Ayn Rand lays out a pretty good model for universal morality.

My understanding of her philosophy is "let the strong win, fuck the rest". Could you elaborate on what you think is her "universal morality"?

@yboris. Your account says that you are an 'Effective Altruist'. In a nutshell, Ayn Rand believes that altruism is immoral and argues why.

Given your eloquently put understanding of her philosophy, I doubt that you are interested in digging deeper. But in case I'm wrong, everything is summarised in a short interview with Mike Wallace (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHl2PqwRcY0).

Re: Are we cut out for universal morality?

#43
The choice of the word universal is a bit ironic, as the nature of the (physical) universe prevents such a thing from being possible.

Unified morality, like a unified concept of what is “human”, is a temporary consequence of centralization in a single location. Right now, that’s Earth. But good luck maintaining a uniform conception of right and wrong when it takes a few decades to get to the next civilization.

For that matter, good luck maintaining a unified concept of human being. Mars, for instance, has a number of qualities that will select for certain traits over others. A colony developing there, sufficiently isolated, would start to develop into a variant quite unlike us earthlings.

https://youtu.be/0q_B5X7PBHA

Re: Are we cut out for universal morality?

#44
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding of her philosophy is "let the strong win, fuck the rest". Could you elaborate on what you think is her "universal morality"?

@yboris. Your account says that you are an 'Effective Altruist'. In a nutshell, Ayn Rand believes that altruism is immoral and argues why. Given your eloquently put understanding of her philosophy, I doubt that you are interested in digging deeper. But in case I'm wrong, everything is summarised in a short interview with Mike Wallace ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHl2PqwRcY0 ).

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Re: Are we cut out for universal morality?

#45

This article reminds me that A) Most philosophy writings sounds like the ramblings of cranks B) There is still a lot of value in thinking about them. I think that this article is missing a few insights that I value. One is that I’ve come to view something like philosophical truth essentially unknowable- There may be universal truths, but proving that across all scenarios is not feasible. They may even (or likely) be…

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Re: Are we cut out for universal morality?

#47
post #4

The premise is quite weird, because we're not "cut out". We've evolved, and still evolving. The best thing evolution did to us is to make a lot of our behaviors learned. So how we perceive morality is something we can learn, and we can pass onto generations, basically recreating the concept of evolution through culture, at a much faster pace. The article claims we need to give up tribalism to get there. I disagree. T…

There will always be leaders branching off with their own tribes. No doubt you've experienced that in microcosms.

At first, giving up tribalism is just the formation of another tribe. Then there become multiple tribes that exist to define what it means to truly give up tribalism and so forth.

Re: Are we cut out for universal morality?

#48
post #18

Any sufficiently universal morality must include the impact our actions/inactions have on animals (or any other entity capable of "experiencing" some reality). We are nowhere near such a concept, and almost assuredly never will be.

Why does the distinction stop with the human convention of the animal kingdom? Is it immoral to make a plant species extinct? Is morality rooted in subjective experience?

> or any other entity capable of "experiencing" some reality

I pre-answered your question about the animal kingdom.

When I say "must include" I imply only that it's necessary, not sufficient. My premise is simply that I have identified a necessary condition which will never be met.

Re: Are we cut out for universal morality?

#49
post #24

Any sufficiently universal morality must include the impact our actions/inactions have on animals (or any other entity capable of "experiencing" some reality). We are nowhere near such a concept, and almost assuredly never will be.

Utilitarianism is almost 300 years old and includes animals in its "circle of concern". Many people care about animal rights, and once people stop eating meat (because meat alternatives will eventually win out with price) there will be a major shift in perspective - meat eaters will be looked upon as we currently look on slave owners: doing something seriously morally wrong.

I know that individuals think this way, I'm just not convinced any society will ever get there.

Re: Are we cut out for universal morality?

#50
post #4

The premise is quite weird, because we're not "cut out". We've evolved, and still evolving. The best thing evolution did to us is to make a lot of our behaviors learned. So how we perceive morality is something we can learn, and we can pass onto generations, basically recreating the concept of evolution through culture, at a much faster pace. The article claims we need to give up tribalism to get there. I disagree. T…

>We need to stick with tribalism, but make everyone part of the same tribe. That sounds completely psychotic to me.

Arguably, that is what we've seen happening throughout history - keeping the conceptual intuitive tribalism but significantly extending what the "tribe" means.

The basics of tribalism comes either from isolated tribes (generally under Dunbar's number) for hunter-gatherers or, later with agriculture, extended family units/clans - where you have both close blood relations and know each other.

Then we see city-states and various unions of many tribes (e.g. for nomadic steppe peoples) forming a much larger shared identity that is using the same behavior and loyalty principles, but you're much more distantly related and can't know everyone anymore.

And this starts a trend of the "larger tribe" intervening in the "smaller tribes" to prevent conflict with them and have individuals of different "subtribes" interact between tribes with a shared goal instead of defending the tribal identity; they start punishing raids and violence between the "subtribes", and form a larger shared identity based on culture, religion, etc.

Fast forward a few centuries and we see the great "religious tribes" unifying many decentralized rulers; and then we see the age of nationalism in 1800s which in many cases unified many smaller states with aggressive unification of their identities and elimination of dialects so that the "tribe that includes everyone" is stronger, but despite the suppression of "smaller tribes" IMHO it's quite clear that the peak nationalism was also very much a peak of tribalism attitudes.

In that regard, humanism is essentially nothing else than treating all humans as a single tribe, and it is an extension of the same trend and practice; we know that dissolving the smaller tribes in order the larger tribe stronger works and is possible as we have done that before; though, often the unification was facilitated and driven by external threats.

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