Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

China allows couples to have three children

bbc.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

241–250 of 339 posts

Re: China allows couples to have three children

#241

Post by pcbro141 »

rainworld wrote: post #228

Westerners so enthusiastic about “China’s demographic problem” would be well advised to worry about their own, local sub-replacement birth rates, in particular for natives (you know, the ones who built the countries everybody else seems so hell-bent immigrating to), as well as for the educated, the middle classes. Also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19095925

I assume by 'native' you mean 'white'? Looking at the students/faculty of elite schools/research labs and staff of top companies, I see plenty of highly intelligent and educated non-white immigrants producing great work (sometimes they even make up the majority of these elite groups).

And many (most?) Western countries do provide various incentives to have kids, as well as Asian countries, but the incentives don't ever seem to work to get above that 2.1 replacement level, so Western governments are 'worried'/concerned about birth rates, but boosting them significantly not an easy thing to do. Especially when part of the reason might be that people simply don't want more than 1 or 2 kids these days regardless of finances.

Re: China allows couples to have three children

#242

Post by enraged_camel »

rainworld wrote: post #228

Westerners so enthusiastic about “China’s demographic problem” would be well advised to worry about their own, local sub-replacement birth rates, in particular for natives (you know, the ones who built the countries everybody else seems so hell-bent immigrating to), as well as for the educated, the middle classes. Also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19095925

>> in particular for natives (you know, the ones who built the countries everybody else seems so hell-bent immigrating to)

It was difficult to read this and not laugh because it conveniently leaves out First Nations, as well as the fact that the USA in particular used immense amounts of slave labor while the "natives" you refer to (the whites) reaped the rewards in relative comfort.

Re: China allows couples to have three children

#243

Post by throwaway210222 »

pcbro141 wrote: post #241
rainworld wrote: post #228

Westerners so enthusiastic about “China’s demographic problem” would be well advised to worry about their own, local sub-replacement birth rates, in particular for natives (you know, the ones who built the countries everybody else seems so hell-bent immigrating to), as well as for the educated, the middle classes. Also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19095925

I assume by 'native' you mean 'white'? Looking at the students/faculty of elite schools/research labs and staff of top companies, I see plenty of highly intelligent and educated non-white immigrants producing great work (sometimes they even make up the majority of these elite groups). And many (most?) Western countries do provide various incentives to have kids, as well as Asian countries, but the incentives don't ev…

Re: replacement ration > 2.1

Its not just about the number of children per women/couple: the missing element is to have children really young.

Like 16 - 24

Make childcare, schooling, etc tax deductible for starters.

Re: China allows couples to have three children

#244

Post by seanmcdirmid »

prepend wrote: post #195
faitswulff wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is adoption murder? Abortion? Why is it easier to imagine that Chinese people murder infants than it is to imagine literally any other scenario? Why is it easier to assume that a massive sex imbalance is the result members of a particular group of people being psychopaths rather than the result of some systemic cause? Hmm.

Infanticide doesn’t mean psychopaths. It’s been practiced, and I think super bad, by many cultures. I don’t think that means the culture is full of psychopaths. Also, I assumed the reason there was no evidence posted for the Chinese infanticide claim is that it’s extremely common and has been known for a long time. I just assumed everyone was aware. It doesn’t mean people killing literal babies, but does mean stuff l…

True story: when we got pregnant in Beijing, our first ultrasound that could tell the sex of the baby, the technician was hinting at it (look there!), but she wasn’t allowed to say it out loud.

Re: China allows couples to have three children

#245

Post by seanmcdirmid »

jokethrowaway wrote: post #205
faitswulff wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is adoption murder? Abortion? Why is it easier to imagine that Chinese people murder infants than it is to imagine literally any other scenario? Why is it easier to assume that a massive sex imbalance is the result members of a particular group of people being psychopaths rather than the result of some systemic cause? Hmm.

Yes, abortion is murder and a new human being is formed at conception. It's just convenient to call it something else not to appear monsters. If a girl were adopted in China she would still show up in this dataset. I haven't heard about foreign adoption being popular in China (like it would be in eg. Africa), so the unbalance is likely to be the result of aborting/killing baby girls.

Foreign adoptions from China were popular a decade or two ago, now they pretty much don’t exist. Still, those flows should have had some effect on today’s numbers.

Re: China allows couples to have three children

#246

Post by rainworld »

pcbro141 wrote: post #241
rainworld wrote: post #228

Westerners so enthusiastic about “China’s demographic problem” would be well advised to worry about their own, local sub-replacement birth rates, in particular for natives (you know, the ones who built the countries everybody else seems so hell-bent immigrating to), as well as for the educated, the middle classes. Also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19095925

I assume by 'native' you mean 'white'? Looking at the students/faculty of elite schools/research labs and staff of top companies, I see plenty of highly intelligent and educated non-white immigrants producing great work (sometimes they even make up the majority of these elite groups). And many (most?) Western countries do provide various incentives to have kids, as well as Asian countries, but the incentives don't ev…

white

At this point it affects most countries outside of Africa.

immigration

I believe in diversity. Immigration will forever change the countries it affects, typically making them more like the source countries.

boosting hard

One might be able to push it just above 2.1, but fundamentally the causes are significant, unprecedented technological and social changes since the industrial revolution. Nowhere is it guaranteed that these changes produce a stable, lasting order.

Re: China allows couples to have three children

#247

Post by mlyle »

faitswulff wrote: post #211
kube-system wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not exactly “killing infants” but abortion. https://www.npr.org/2016/02/01/465124337/how-chinas-one-chil... https://www.bmj.com/content/338/bmj.b1211

Abortion is not the same thing as killing infants. The racism that's tolerated on this site is very telling.

In this case, we have evidence of a whole lot of abortion of female fetuses.. and less, but still a notable amount, of infanticide: https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1985/01/08/c...

Note that there was a big shift in the gender ratio before sex determination by ultrasound was widely available in rural China.

Re: China allows couples to have three children

#248

Post by xdennis »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #133
lammalamma25 wrote: post #127

Every story about China should include a note that the government decides how many children its citizens are allowed to have. We've grown numb to how terrible this is.

I’m a pretty staunch critic of China, but population control seems like a pretty good thing. I suppose ideally it would be promoted but ultimately voluntary, but I don’t think their single child policy was the worst thing they’ve done by far.

[flagged]

Re: China allows couples to have three children

#249

Post by pcbro141 »

throwaway210222 wrote: post #243
pcbro141 wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume by 'native' you mean 'white'? Looking at the students/faculty of elite schools/research labs and staff of top companies, I see plenty of highly intelligent and educated non-white immigrants producing great work (sometimes they even make up the majority of these elite groups). And many (most?) Western countries do provide various incentives to have kids, as well as Asian countries, but the incentives don't ev…

Re: replacement ration > 2.1 Its not just about the number of children per women/couple: the missing element is to have children really young. Like 16 - 24 Make childcare, schooling, etc tax deductible for starters.

IMO even with all those incentives I just don't see the typical age at first child getting to 16-24 in any Western country even with strong incentives.

Not just because of costs, but the harder to modify cultural reasons like people valuing independence, "casual dating"/FWB more common instead of dating with intent to marry, less social pressure/shaming from parents ("why don't you have a husband/wife/kids yet?!"), freedom to "find yourself/travel" or "get sexually experienced/have a ho phase before settling" for years after college, etc.

Most people don't want to go from college to marriage and kids right away these days, and a few years of this type of casual dating/exploration after college eats up a lot of prime reproductive years like you said. But these cultural factors are very hard to change especially with the absence of religion/strong communities these days.

Re: China allows couples to have three children

#250

Post by rainworld »

enraged_camel wrote: post #242
rainworld wrote: post #228

Westerners so enthusiastic about “China’s demographic problem” would be well advised to worry about their own, local sub-replacement birth rates, in particular for natives (you know, the ones who built the countries everybody else seems so hell-bent immigrating to), as well as for the educated, the middle classes. Also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19095925

>> in particular for natives (you know, the ones who built the countries everybody else seems so hell-bent immigrating to) It was difficult to read this and not laugh because it conveniently leaves out First Nations, as well as the fact that the USA in particular used immense amounts of slave labor while the "natives" you refer to (the whites) reaped the rewards in relative comfort.

I’m not american.
Post reply on HN