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Neural networks emulate any guitar pedal for $120

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Re: Neural networks emulate any guitar pedal for $120

#71

Post by smoldesu »

montroser wrote: post #33
Applejinx wrote: post #23

…at MP3 quality. This is fine if you like that sort of thing. I would note that latency is very important here: it's not going to be nice to play through if it's incurring any significant latency.

Yes, latency is huge. Modern digital audio stacks in consumer OSes are still completely terrible at this. Not that it's an easy problem to solve. But it's pretty hard to beat elections flowing through an analog circuit, when in the digital side you have to: convert analog to digital, run through the kernel to get to user space, run the bits through the RNN, send back to kernel space, convert to analog and finally sen…

> Modern digital audio stacks in consumer OSes are still completely terrible at this. Not that it's an easy problem to solve.

Honestly, the only OS that's truly bad at this is Windows. DirectSound is laggy and highly limited in it's capabilities, and even a nice ASIO won't fully alleviate your issues. Your best bet is to get a DAC and hope for the best. Besides that, I've found Linux and MacOS to be very similar in terms of latency, out of the box. However, I've found that tuning Linux with a custom low-latency kernel absolutely destroys CoreAudio's latency. Given that it's something most people won't be doing, I think it's fair to say that both OSes are tied, but I still give the edge to Linux for having a more modular and adaptable sound backend.

Re: Neural networks emulate any guitar pedal for $120

#72

Post by smoldesu »

Applejinx wrote: post #23

…at MP3 quality. This is fine if you like that sort of thing. I would note that latency is very important here: it's not going to be nice to play through if it's incurring any significant latency.

In all fairness, it's running on a Raspberry Pi. There's plenty of ways you could improve latency and audio quality just by scaling the hardware to fit your needs. Plus, it's not like someone's going to flip their shit when they realize that one of the electric guitars was recorded at 44.1khz instead of 48/96/192khz

Re: Neural networks emulate any guitar pedal for $120

#73

Post by ushakov »

riku_iki wrote: post #69
ushakov wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the problem with this approach is you need to have knowledge about the circuit to make it happen, not only that, but you also need people, who can reconstruct the circuit digitally this approach is not scalable (that's why the high cost) the ML approach doesn't require any knowledge about the system (black-box) to produce the result

> this approach is not scalable (that's why the high cost) It may be opposite, most of the amps follow some classic schematic (e.g. jtm, plexi, princeton) with insignificant changes, so after building digital copies of some limited number of classical amps they can add new one rather fast. As result, fractal has about 100 high quality models already (average guitarist probably uses 5?). > the ML approach doesn't requ…

sure, but can it model my amp? i doubt they will ever add it!

correct, ml requires data, but you don't need to capture every possible position to do a good prediction

only a handful would suffice and let's be honest, how many presets do you really need (average guitarist probably uses 5?)

Re: Neural networks emulate any guitar pedal for $120

#74

Post by jeffreygoesto »

IshKebab wrote: post #62
ampdepolymerase wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just switch the Pi for a FPGA and the problem should be fixed.

That's not necessary. And FPGA doesn't have lower latency (I mean on the ms scale) compared to a Pi because of hardware. It has lower latency because it doesn't run a non-realtime OS. You can just use a Pi with bare metal code or a real time OS.

I would go even further and say that an FPGA does not RUN something, it IS something.

Re: Neural networks emulate any guitar pedal for $120

#75

Post by crmd »

Applejinx wrote: post #59
hashkb wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, the competition is not against vintage analog gear. Modern analog gear is having a true Renaissance, and this community can afford to support the Wampler's of the world. I don't understand the modelling camp at all, their stuff just doesn't sound good, nor is there any joy in working with it.

I feel the same but it's hell convincing the reductionists that they haven't got 'the thing, and the whole of the thing' in their little emulation. There's also another element: if you have, say, a vintage Fender Champ and a Klon (or whatever) it's because you mean to project different expressions through your string handling and note-playing. At that level you've made a best effort to produce the most emotionally tr…

I have this problem just with the torpedo captor x speaker simulator. At first I thought it was a game changer for apartment guitar playing. However the plethora of speaker, mic, and placement options makes me spend way too much time browsing and fussing rather than playing. I’d rather have one decent cab in a room where I can turn up the volume rather than hundreds of simulation options.

Re: Neural networks emulate any guitar pedal for $120

#76

Post by tigeba »

montroser wrote: post #33
Applejinx wrote: post #23

…at MP3 quality. This is fine if you like that sort of thing. I would note that latency is very important here: it's not going to be nice to play through if it's incurring any significant latency.

Yes, latency is huge. Modern digital audio stacks in consumer OSes are still completely terrible at this. Not that it's an easy problem to solve. But it's pretty hard to beat elections flowing through an analog circuit, when in the digital side you have to: convert analog to digital, run through the kernel to get to user space, run the bits through the RNN, send back to kernel space, convert to analog and finally sen…

I could see using something like this on a pedalboard in pedal form if you had the latency around <5ms or so for sure. I use a combination of analog and digital effects combined with analog amplifiers. I still prefer the actual amps quite a bit compared to simulations, but the simulations are a lot less of a pain. Recently I have been using a combination load box / cabinet simulator and I think those types of devices can really deliver in terms of tone and convenience.

Re: Neural networks emulate any guitar pedal for $120

#77

Post by tigeba »

crmd wrote: post #75
Applejinx wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel the same but it's hell convincing the reductionists that they haven't got 'the thing, and the whole of the thing' in their little emulation. There's also another element: if you have, say, a vintage Fender Champ and a Klon (or whatever) it's because you mean to project different expressions through your string handling and note-playing. At that level you've made a best effort to produce the most emotionally tr…

I have this problem just with the torpedo captor x speaker simulator. At first I thought it was a game changer for apartment guitar playing. However the plethora of speaker, mic, and placement options makes me spend way too much time browsing and fussing rather than playing. I’d rather have one decent cab in a room where I can turn up the volume rather than hundreds of simulation options.

FWIW, I have been using the Captor X as a quick tracking and editing tool. I will record the DI + Captor track. It can be a bit easier to comp the DI parts. Then later I go back and re-amp them thru my amps and speakers. I do have the benefit of a few nice amp and cabinet options and decent soundproofing, but it helps keep the ear-bleeding levels down to a minimum. That has kind of helped me avoid fiddling with Captor settings endlessly.

Re: Neural networks emulate any guitar pedal for $120

#78

Post by dkarras »

Applejinx wrote: post #23

…at MP3 quality. This is fine if you like that sort of thing. I would note that latency is very important here: it's not going to be nice to play through if it's incurring any significant latency.

>…at MP3 quality.

Not necessarily... why? We have been very successful with amp / pedal modeling through regular DSP methods. You'd be very hard pressed to find an album that doesn't use one nowadays. What makes NN methods fundamentally different?

>it's not going to be nice to play through if it's incurring any significant latency.

Yes but this is a non issue for many of the current systems, actually since a couple decades ago. 1-2ms latency is pretty achievable, especially with a RT kernel. That is the natural latency of a sound source about 1 meter away from you.

Re: Neural networks emulate any guitar pedal for $120

#79

Post by leviathant »

duped wrote: post #53
ushakov wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but the coolest thing is that you can share and download models of one-of-a-kind amps or effect chains, which cannot be bought

Line6 was doing this 10-15 years ago and it wasn't that cool then. Eventide has some tools for it today tool, there's also the Owl, various teensy projects, and of course Kemper.

I've had a Line 6 Guitar Port for about 20 years. It was $99, and emulates amps, cabinets, pedals, console channels, rack effects, etc., admittedly offloading the work into a computer that (at the time) cost about a grand.

Are they perfect emulations? No. Did anyone notice that in my music? No. Would I take that rig on stage? Also no.

It did help me find sounds I liked though, and over the years I've bought hardware equivalents of some of my favorite emulations, and I've bought hardware that goes beyond anything Line 6 can do.

As to whether Line 6 is cool or not, NIN/Trent Reznor toured with Line 6 rigs to sold out arenas 20 years ago, and today the live rigs are managed by the FOH using software emulations that can be automated or managed from on-stage controllers. Maybe you don't think that's cool, but the important takeaway is that you should use the tool that's right for you.

I think it's good to see people tinkering with new ways to reduce the cost around modulating audio signals in interesting ways.

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