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NSA spying row: Denmark helped US gather data on European officials, says report

bbc.com

121–130 of 182 posts

Re: NSA spying row: Denmark helped US gather data on European officials, says report

#121
post #101
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Europeans have had enough wars to want a more stable Europe, with or without US support.

Tt was the CIA that infiltrated the communists in Italy for the exact purpose of shaping the politics of the continent to their design. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Italy See also: https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2020/11/13/how-the-cia-created-th... You may think that this accordance of like-mind was spontaneous, but it has clearly been a half-century long project of the United States. No wonder their d…

The CIA has certainly done some regrettable/shady stuff historically, as have almost all intelligence organisations that I’m aware of (reading about the history of espionage and covert activities, I often wonder how the people involved manage to preserve any sort of sanity in that mistrustful, cloak and dagger world?). Although politically (and somewhat culturally?) natural allies, being that both entities are largely a collection of democracies/republics, if you view global economics as a zero-sum game you could say that the EU is a direct competitor to the US. Indeed, although politically less-strongly federated/bound together, as far as I’m aware, the EU has greater wealth as a whole than the US does. Various governments, companies and individuals that oppose democratic forms of government and ‘liberal’ values see the economic strength, cooperation and mutual defence/offence promoted by an alignment of these two political organisations as counter to their interests, or potentially a threat to more authoritarian hegemonies. Contrary to what you say, the previous US administration actively supported Brexit. Many authoritarian governments around the world were also cheering it on, as presumably geo-strategically it was/is in their interests to divide and undermine democratic forms of government.

Re: NSA spying row: Denmark helped US gather data on European officials, says report

#122
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democracy is a lie which was constructed to pacify the people. If you think you have some control, you feel more free and superior to others.

The word democracy derives from the Greek words for ‘People’ - ‘Demos’ and ‘Power’ - ‘-cracy’. So, literally: ‘people power’ or ‘power of/to or government of the people by the people’. Originally, very roughly speaking, it was an alternative form of government to being ruled by tyrants. If you are seriously disparaging one of the many forms in which human beings have tried to implement some form of democracy, arguabl…

The Greek concept of democracy looked nothing like the modern republic. A Greek democracy did not elect legislators: that function belonged to the people assembled as a whole. Nor did it elect ordinary magistrates, who were instead selected by random lot from lists of willing volunteers in a process now called "sortition." The rationale behind sortition relied on the notion that the ordinary business of government was mundane and required no special competence or knowledge aside from the ordinary citizen's share of justice and patriotism. The ancient Greek democracy elected only ambassadors and generals, people in whom authority needed to be concentrated and yet who also had to be competent rather than simply willing. There was an ancient form of government in between tyranny and democracy: oligarchy. In an oligarchy, a few people were selected to make decisions for the rest. There were in different cities various methods of selecting the oligarchs, but popular election was certainly among them. The downside to regularly scheduled, popular elections, in contrast to the random chance of democratic sortition, was that the expectation of elections generated political parties or factions to attempt to influence or control the outcome of the popular election and thus control the oligarchy. This was, of course, impossible in a democracy, since no election was held: sortition makes partisan politics pointless. In short, the reason that the word "democracy" is never found in the American Constitution is that America was never intended to be a democracy in the ancient sense, the only sense in which the Founders understood the term. The modern "democracy" of an elected legislature and elected magistrates is, in fact, what the Greeks would have termed an oligarchy.

Re: NSA spying row: Denmark helped US gather data on European officials, says report

#123
post #32

This all boils down to the question of how to reign in the administrative state, and the problem here is that no one really wants to reign it in, they want to control it and point it in the direction they prefer, that is, they want an extra-judicial, extra-legislative source of power to exist, but just not do any of the things they don't like. But I don't think this is possible, once you have an administrative state,…

Private institutions are even less accountable. I don’t see an alternative for advanced civilization right now.

Re: NSA spying row: Denmark helped US gather data on European officials, says report

#124

Listen Europe, this is good spying though. Not Huawei 5G spying. Just like American torture is good torture, because we only torture the bad guys.

I'm so glad your government is helping to keep us safe! To express my gratitude I'll help boost your economy with some ad revenue today and aid the good fight. The profits should trickle down to you eventually. On a more serious note, I think (possibly in my naive ignorance) the geopolitical implications are quite different. I have the impression that American cultural influence has become increasingly prevalent thro…

I think you like most American's and Brit's overestimate how big of an influence it have that English have become the international common language by underestimating how much of that culture and language have been internalized as an European thing that is no longer owned/controlled/dominated by AngloAmerican interest.

In terms of cultural sympathies the internet have opened the door for the European public to understand and pick sides in the internal debates that happens inside of America which further limits the influence the American state/establishment have on European public opinion, and the general disgust most Americans feel for Washington is shared across the pond where it gets amplified by the fact that Europe's geopolitical interests is radically different from the dominant neocon/neoliberal agenda's that dominate Washington policy making.

Re: NSA spying row: Denmark helped US gather data on European officials, says report

#125
post #112
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Syria civil war was a CIA operation to oust Bashar al-Assad. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timber_Sycamore Libya civil war also probably CIA. And then you have Iraq. These wars created multiple migration crises to Europe. And not only that, by funding and training rebels in Syria it lead to a hotbed for terrorist, some of these terrorist slipped into Europe and committed terrorist attacks, like the Paris 2015 attacks…

If it was, it certainly was a failed CIA operation. No but honestly: while the US had some interest with the Kurds, they didn't engage to cause the Syrian civil war nor did they were able to stop Russia from gaining influence. And I am not really sure if your mixing up ISIS supporters in your narrative. I haven't heard that they were links to the CIA for any terror in Europe connected to Syria.

> If it was, it certainly was a failed CIA operation.

That's not rare at all. See also: IS, Al Quaeda, vast swaths of Africa (which are now being ceded to the Chinese) and Latin America. The world is littered with failed CIA plots, and the fall-out of those will last for decades.

Re: NSA spying row: Denmark helped US gather data on European officials, says report

#126

The Five Eyes have built a sufficiently valuable asset that the security services of other rich countries all want in. Denmark is in Nine Eyes, so they’ll happily sell out members of Fourteen Eyes (like Germany) to get closer into the circle.

You just assume that every electronic communication is dragneted now. Your phone, your car radio's bluetooth radio, toll transponder, alpr, everything. What I like about the signals-intelligence-only focus is that I can leave my phone at home, hop on an ebike with a legally mandated helmet obscuring my face from cameras, and I'm completely invisible to the state. I just don't exist. Unlike East Germany there's no HUM…

>legally mandated helmet obscuring my face from cameras

Can you link to the bike helmet you are referring to?

Re: NSA spying row: Denmark helped US gather data on European officials, says report

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There's no reason why this should not hold for spying and policing agencies Isn't that what democracies call "constitution"? Something that protects citizens' rights again wrong-doing of powerful entities including legislators and the state itself?

And how's thats working out so far?

Actually it was going reasonably well for 2 or 3 centuries, the mass spying is a recent development.

Thus the correct question to ask is "why/how did we break the system that used to work"

Re: NSA spying row: Denmark helped US gather data on European officials, says report

#128

EU leaders are weak, they'll continue act like blind slaves Makes me laugh everytime i think about how facebook stole europe's idea (libra), thanks weak leaders

What was it that Zuckerberg allegedly said?

"If Europe had invented Facebook, they would have invented Facebook".

Re: NSA spying row: Denmark helped US gather data on European officials, says report

#129
post #41

The Five Eyes have built a sufficiently valuable asset that the security services of other rich countries all want in. Denmark is in Nine Eyes, so they’ll happily sell out members of Fourteen Eyes (like Germany) to get closer into the circle.

Germany has no room to complain. https://www.dw.com/en/parliamentary-report-finds-spying-by-b... > German media later reported that the NSA had provided German intelligence services with spying software in exchange for data sharing. Consequently, the BND and it domestic intelligence couterpart, called the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution (BfV), were accused of assisting the NSA in its global surv…

>The truth is that allies spy on each other all the time, it's not just normal but prudent to do so.

Thank you for the sanity. I certainly have problems with the surveillance state and authoritarianism in the US, but this is the most relevant take on this report. All spying is not all bad. Western countries give each other intel all the time. I would be more concerned if there were only one or a few set of eyes on things rather than more.

Re: NSA spying row: Denmark helped US gather data on European officials, says report

#130

Listen Europe, this is good spying though. Not Huawei 5G spying. Just like American torture is good torture, because we only torture the bad guys.

I'm so glad your government is helping to keep us safe! To express my gratitude I'll help boost your economy with some ad revenue today and aid the good fight. The profits should trickle down to you eventually. On a more serious note, I think (possibly in my naive ignorance) the geopolitical implications are quite different. I have the impression that American cultural influence has become increasingly prevalent thro…

"I have the impression that American cultural influence has become increasingly prevalent throughout Europe"

I am failing to see the relevance of this - shared culture does not mean shared interests or shared benefits, the world is full of conflicts between states with shared culture, see Russia and Ukraine.

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