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Improving ventilation will help curb SARS-CoV-2

economist.com

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Re: Improving ventilation will help curb SARS-CoV-2

#121
post #106
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that I've edited my comment to better reflect my thoughts (probably since you wrote this). I don't think you should take this one paper as some kind of definitive rebuttal on masks. You should interpret it as a reasonable summary of current evidence, as well as a not-terrible analysis of US states that poses some serious challenges to the effectiveness of mask mandates. That said, an editorial/letter in science…

> Regions with an early interest in face masks had milder COVID-19 epidemics, according to a new letter-to-the-editor published in the American Journal of Respiratory and Critical Care Medicine. (the source of the Science Daily article: https://www.atsjournals.org/doi/pdf/10.1164/rccm.202004-1188... ) I don't see how this is much less scientific than the non-peer-reviewed paper you posted.

A letter to an editor is not peer reviewed. It is a letter from a reader.

Both of the papers I linked to are either peer reviewed, or a pre-print in the process of review.

Re: Improving ventilation will help curb SARS-CoV-2

#122
No government I’m aware of has yet committing to fund renovation of every indoor business in their country.

Nothing smaller than a government is prepared for the renovation cost of retrofitting every single business in the world for disease-preventing air exchange standards.

If I were a small business owner, I wouldn’t want to simultaneously scare or anger customers, especially if there’s nothing I can do to afford massive HVAC renovation to a building I probably don’t even own. I would earn the fear of patrons and the ire of other tenants, and might end up evicted by my landlord for junk reasons like epidemic fear-mongering or wasting heating and cooling on an open door.

If I were a landlord, I would have no incentive to upgrade HVAC on any building I own, because doing one would compel them all to do it, and start an arms race with my competitors that would cost my dearly without being able to raise the rent to maintain my profits, since my tenants are already underwater.

Fancy businesses with exclusively rich patrons have probably already upgraded their HVAC while we were all arguing about whether to wear masks or not, because unlike the rest of us, they aren’t constrained by the cost of remaining diligent at protecting their customers. But I bet they only improved their HVAC filtration, and added UV lights somewhere, rather than actually implementing real and serious air exchange protocols.

No bank is going to offer a landlord a low-interest HVAC upgrade loan for their building, because to do so for any one business would begin a run on the bank by every landlord and business in the world, who would demand that same loan be extended to them, while simultaneously spiking the risk of their entire portfolio of commercial property mortgages, forcing them to recapitalize or go bust.

Changing building codes will only affect new buildings, which is worthless for stopping this winter’s annual pandemic (whether it’s covid or flu or both). It’s a fine thing to do, but existing buildings will be given an exception.

Everyone’s acting in self-interest to the exclusion of others, and the only thing that’s going to be enough to break that cycle is for governments to invest GDP directly into HVAC renovation, for every single building in the world.

This isn’t a flashy solution, and there really isn’t much tech can do to help here. We simply need boots on the ground in every building in the world, and the supply chains and government funding necessary to deliver that.

But maybe we, HN readers and founders, can help. If one of you can write a tool that shows us how much renovations will truly cost, and you can reduce your estimate to a simple set of inputs^ then you have a chance to make it possible. Today we make up numbers and have no idea what it truly costs to upgrade air exchange for the cities of New York, Atherton, or Barcelona. We don’t have any idea at all. Build a tool that tells us, so that we can convince the world to prevent the next Covid.

^ For example, using these four inputs — number of rooms, number of floors, number of stairwells, number of elevators — you could offer a calculator that lets anyone punch in a building’s data from blueprints and permits, offer permalinks that store the building data, and offer to subscribe them to cost updates when the algorithm is improved.

Re: Improving ventilation will help curb SARS-CoV-2

#123
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> FACT: COVID-19 is NOT airborne. > The coronavirus is mainly transmitted through droplets generated when an infected person coughs, sneezes or speaks. > To protect yourself: > -keep 1m distance from others > -disinfect surfaces frequently > -wash/rub your > -avoid touching your From: https://www.facebook.com/WHO/posts/fact-covid-19-is-not-airb... Further reading: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jvchamary/2021/05/28/who…

Years later I still run into people not aware of the semantics and the difference between a disease being an aerosol and a disease being airborne. Which smacks of poor communication.

Lots of people are bad at listening/reading, sadly.

There's only so much that can be done as a speaker/writer. They could and should have done more here, but there will always be a lossy step when people doing the actual work take the information to "the public".

Re: Improving ventilation will help curb SARS-CoV-2

#124
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not about having a monopoly on good information. It’s about a monopoly on attention. What use is it if the WHO is wrong and someone else is right, but everybody listens to the WHO?

Fortunately they didn’t have an attention monopoly either, in part because they didn’t have an information monopoly. :)

YouTube banned videos and accounts that contradicted the WHO.

Censorship is a big problem.

Re: Improving ventilation will help curb SARS-CoV-2

#125
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are not the only ones at all. Same thing happened to a lot of other people. There was for example a lot of good information from the Italian National Institute of Health that simply listed the number and type of comorbidities in deceased Covid patients. Mentioning these numbers, even with proper citation was cause for being banned/not being approved by moderators. It didn't fit the official narrative. Like my si…

There is this problem where: 1. A situation becomes political, and all kinds of claims are made by demagogues without evidence in order to score points, based on whatever they would like to be true. 2. There is lots of arguing, and subtle points like “we don’t know enough to know the truth yet but X seems practical/probable” get attacked by all sides or used by the people from 1 to show how much they are being silenc…

In my experience, those called "conspiracy theorists" (or any other name for that matter) turned out to be mostly right. The subreddit /r/wuhan_flu was quarantined last February for allegations that the virus may have escaped from a lab and that the virus may be airborne. They did not even claim it was definitely so, but it was just speculation based on multiple papers. That subreddit is still quarantined as of today. That's just one of the thousands of examples I've come across.

The people who spread G5 and chip theories are a very small group compared to the rest of the skeptics, yet they are portrayed by the mass media etc. as one and the same. This is reflected in how many people deal with people who criticize the official story.

We seem to have lost all logic and critical thinking. There is no room for healthy discussions anymore. Instead people are personally attacking each other.

Re: Improving ventilation will help curb SARS-CoV-2

#126
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that was specifically about calling Covid a hoax. Those who were fighting against this censorship weren’t fighting for Covid being airborne or not

That is not true, in the Netherlands a critic had one of his videos pulled by YouTube for claiming COVID-19 spreads through aerosols when this was not the consensus. Yet.

You are referring to Maurice de Hond I assume?

Re: Improving ventilation will help curb SARS-CoV-2

#127
post #95
post #6

> The who therefore played down the risks of aerosols, issuing guidance via its Twitter and Facebook pages at the end of March 2020 that the general public need not worry. “FACT: #COVID19 is NOT airborne,” it said, adding that any claims to the contrary were “misinformation”. Not quite the money quote, but on reading this I wanted to point out one little thing. This is also a form of authoritarianism, not the splashy…

> FACT: COVID-19 is NOT airborne. > The coronavirus is mainly transmitted through droplets generated when an infected person coughs, sneezes or speaks. > To protect yourself: > -keep 1m distance from others > -disinfect surfaces frequently > -wash/rub your > -avoid touching your From: https://www.facebook.com/WHO/posts/fact-covid-19-is-not-airb... Further reading: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jvchamary/2021/05/28/who…

> The coronavirus is mainly transmitted through droplets generated when an infected person coughs, sneezes or speaks.

Emphasis mine.

Honestly there was no way around the mess, thanks to social media amplifying any popular outrage and misunderstanding to 11. And I'm not excusing the WHO, their role has been borderline criminal at the beginning, and their reactions slow, but it's also very difficult to convey complex information in platforms that are designed to destroy anything resembling attention span.

Their mistake was using a questionable dictionary definition to counter fake news (about COVID-19 being mainly airborne, i.e. lingering for hours in the air like measles, which would have made it a doomsday scenario), and it blew back into their face since it's still airborne under certain conditions.

If they said it's indeed airborne, then it would have blown back as it's not really transmissible in the way other airborne diseases are, and would have been seen as overreaching and exaggerated.

As most things, the truth lies in the middle: limited ventilation may let the virus accumulate in the air enough to reach a viral load that can cause an infection, but social media just flattens everything to black and white, because it's what brings engagement and ad revenue.

Then you have tons of nuances: cold humid environments (vs. hot dry) boost droplet transmission as they can travel farther, but hot dry environments make the droplets turn to aerosols faster (and hence, accumulate in a poorly ventialted area more easily) [0]. Note that while this study is from September 2020, this kind of effect is seen in other respiratory viruses and is not unusual at all.

You just can't convey all of that swiftly and in a convincing way between a cat meme and a gif reaction to the latest Trump tweet.

[0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7496593/

Re: Improving ventilation will help curb SARS-CoV-2

#128

Covid's over bro. We now have herd immunity in North America. Even a top doc at Johns Hopkins says so https://www.wsj.com/articles/herd-immunity-is-near-despite-f... Cases are crashing in in Latin America and South Asia. The only place where it may still rise in big numbers are the prison islands in Oceania. There are better ways to spend our resources than on redoing the world's HVAC, like maybe, y'know, climate cha…

Yes, yes... let's see what happens next winter.

Re: Improving ventilation will help curb SARS-CoV-2

#129
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a while, YouTube and friends were banning people who pointed out the WHO was wrong. So, probably quite a few people.

that was specifically about calling Covid a hoax. Those who were fighting against this censorship weren’t fighting for Covid being airborne or not

No. They had some contentID-esque automation bumbling around silencing doctors who were trying to communicate their understanding of the situation as well as silencing the crackpots.

Re: Improving ventilation will help curb SARS-CoV-2

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can I ask why you chose this brand and this model? I’m looking for an air filter but have no idea which brands to trust.

I chose it because someone mentioned it on HN, and said it was: - silent - HEPA - non-AI/IoT I was afraid it was a paid sponsored comment, but after comparing versions and prices, I tried it and was satisfied. It’s ugly though, looks straight out of the 60ies with its rounded corners.

Can you comment on the feature they call 'vital-ion' with electro-chemical filtering?

If it's an ionizer won't it be releasing Ozone into your filtered room?

That sounds like the opposite of what you want for asthmatics, chidren, etc.

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