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A Philosopher Every Programmer Should Know: Susanne K. Langer

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Re: A Philosopher Every Programmer Should Know: Susanne K. Langer

#61
post #47
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whenever I pick up a maths book, I read all these symbols that have no explanation whatsoever - it's obviously self-indulgent wanking. I admit I don't actually read the book, though, I just open it. But I can tell the symbols aren't english, or any other language I learned before my mind closed, so I can tell it's dross.

Well name a philosophy book that is worth reading. Maths books don't claim to be anything but self-indulgent.

To jump in with the others, I think you'd enjoy Bartley's The Retreat to Commitment, where he raises similar sort of criticisms to the ones you talk about, but in a much more systematic way.

Generally speaking, people who were lucky enough to be born later in time have the advantage over people born earlier, since they can learn from those who come before. This isn't something you have to remember when looking at science since science in the news is if anything too focused on speculation or the latest result over what has been well confirmed - but philosophy has the opposite problem. People still talk about philosophers with ancient names, heavy with dignity even though their ideas have been challenged or extended since their time.

Really, nobody talking about truth should be failing to make a distinction between what is true and what is know since Godel did his work, but Descartes had the disadvantage of being born to early to know about that. In particular, his justifications fall afoul of the third horn of the Münchhausen Trilemma, by resorting to assuming some things as axiomatic. In particular, on reflection I'm baffled that Laplace can take "I think" as axiomatic but not "I am". Existence without though isn't hard to imagine (and some Laplacian demon might be imposing its thoughts on us), but thoughts without existence is. Perhaps if Laplace hadn't set out to prove the existence of God he wouldn't have had to make such odd assumptions.

Re: A Philosopher Every Programmer Should Know: Susanne K. Langer

#62
post #47
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whenever I pick up a maths book, I read all these symbols that have no explanation whatsoever - it's obviously self-indulgent wanking. I admit I don't actually read the book, though, I just open it. But I can tell the symbols aren't english, or any other language I learned before my mind closed, so I can tell it's dross.

Well name a philosophy book that is worth reading. Maths books don't claim to be anything but self-indulgent.

> Well name a philosophy book that is worth reading.

Plato's Dialogues and the Pre-Socratics, written 2500 years ago. By reading the above works you'll see that they contained all the important questions.

Re: A Philosopher Every Programmer Should Know: Susanne K. Langer

#63
post #12

Only programmers that enjoy philosophy. Personally I feel the whole field is obsolete with the invention of neuroethology and similar.

A wise man (my advisor when I was doing my philosophy degree) once said something to the effect of: There are two great mistakes you can make in philosophy. One is deciding there is no ultimate answer. The other is deciding you've found it.

Is it a mistake to say "There may be an ultimate answer, but we have no means of reaching it"?

Re: A Philosopher Every Programmer Should Know: Susanne K. Langer

#64
post #22
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A characteristic aspect of philosophy is to question essentially every assumption. You and I may find other things much more interesting, even if they require some basic assumptions, but that's another story. Edit: I don't know why araneae's comments are being downvoted (despite my upvotes). His points are constructive and on topic...

Obligatory xkcd reference: http://xkcd.com/876/ Sometimes you can go too far in questioning everything to get any practical result.

> Sometimes you can go too far in questioning everything to get any practical result.

That's the thing, philosophy doesn't have to be practical, it stands by itself above everything else, with maybe only Maths as a worthy companion. You can either make fun of this, like Aristophanes already did 2,500 years ago in The Clouds, or you can take it as it is.

Re: A Philosopher Every Programmer Should Know: Susanne K. Langer

#65
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A characteristic aspect of philosophy is to question essentially every assumption. You and I may find other things much more interesting, even if they require some basic assumptions, but that's another story. Edit: I don't know why araneae's comments are being downvoted (despite my upvotes). His points are constructive and on topic...

I wouldn't downvote anyone, but perhaps because it's a paradigm example of a particular strain of thought you see a lot amongst techie/engineering types with limited experience of philosophy, and a line of thought that doesn't stand more than a cursory examination. You've already answered it with your neurons example. Someone else has pointed out that neuroethology will not touch on normative facts (although will pre…

I think you underrate this line of thought. The existence of neurons is, of course, not justified in the philosophical sense - but its hard to argue that anything is justified in the philosophical sense. Reason might be a source of justification, but for that to be so you first have to assume that reason is justified. Senses might be a source of justification, but first you have to assume that knowledge derived from senses if justified. If you do not make either of these assumptions you have to retreat form justified to probabilistic or tentative knowledge, and in those terms the existence of neurons is a rather more reasonable assumption.

Re: A Philosopher Every Programmer Should Know: Susanne K. Langer

#66
post #62
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well name a philosophy book that is worth reading. Maths books don't claim to be anything but self-indulgent.

> Well name a philosophy book that is worth reading. Plato's Dialogues and the Pre-Socratics, written 2500 years ago. By reading the above works you'll see that they contained all the important questions.

That is actually one of the few I am interested in.

Re: A Philosopher Every Programmer Should Know: Susanne K. Langer

#67
post #12

Only programmers that enjoy philosophy. Personally I feel the whole field is obsolete with the invention of neuroethology and similar.

Not proof that araneae's statement is accurate, of course, but a demonstration that science continues to encroach on the domain of philosophy in ways that the philosophers of old could never have imagined:

Back in the 17th century there was an argument between Descartes and Spinoza about how knowledge was formed. Descartes said that we heard a proposition, judged it on the evidence, and then either believed or rejected it depending on its merits. Spinoza said that, instead, our tendancy was to at first believe anything we heard and then only later reject it after some reflection. Over the centuries most people agreed with Descartes, but recently neuroscience has shown pretty conclusively that Spinoza was right. [1][2] So be very careful in assuming that science will never swallow any particular part of philosophy.

[1] http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/~dtg/Gilbert%20et%20al%20%28UNBEL... [2] http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/~dtg/Gilbert%20et%20al%20(EVERYTH...

Re: A Philosopher Every Programmer Should Know: Susanne K. Langer

#68
post #55
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It won't, it will show that there are no normative questions. (exaggerated on purpose, of course, but it's The Final Frontier - once we know how the brain works, we will have a real insight into the nature of morality and we will have 'proof' for the objective nature thereof - all this IMNSHO of course ;) )

Neurology and related sciences can help illuminate what our interests are, but cannot resolve the moral problem of what to do when those interests come into conflict . Science can tell me what kind of diet a child needs to grow into healthy adulthood, but it can’t tell me under what circumstances it would be moral to take money from the wealthy (or, heck, the middle class) in order to feed starving children.

but it can’t tell me under what circumstances it would be moral to take money from the wealthy (or, heck, the middle class) in order to feed starving children.

Sure it can. Take north western Europe, notoriously secular (when compared to the US) yes quite socialist with an extensive social safety net. Economics, sociology, etc, all help you identify what you need to do to reach what ever goals you are aiming for.

And ethics and fairness have been studied and are well known in other social species, like the great apes. They are not uniquely human.

Morality is just the formalization of a whole set of instinctive emotional desires for fairness. Most often it is enforced by using another emotional foundation, the respect for alpha leaders, as in it is God's law you do this and that.

There is no domain which will eternally be out of the reach of reason and science, not morality, not love, not spirituality, nothing. I find this wonderful!

Re: A Philosopher Every Programmer Should Know: Susanne K. Langer

#69
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would rather people look to philosophy for answers to their intractable problems than religion.

> I would rather people look to philosophy for answers to their intractable problems than religion. Religion ended slavery. (Yes, some religions advocated and supported slavery - they lost to the ones that didn't.) What has philosophy done in that domain. (Is it poor form to point out that philosophy pretty much went Nazi during the 30s.) Yes, philosophers produced logic et al.

Religion ended slavery? Please explain (I'm genuinely curious).

Philosophy went nazi? No, nazism went philosophy, and poorly too. They raped Nietzsche's philosophy until it fit their needs, with the help of his decadent Missgeburt of a sister. Heidegger is perhaps a much more problematic case, but also not a matter of black-and-white.

Philosophers _produced_ logic? Wittgenstein is lolling at you in his grave right now.

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