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Overkill objects for everyday life

neil.computer

491–500 of 732 posts

Re: Overkill objects for everyday life

#491

I will postulate an opposing view to TFA: Quality consumer goods are better in two key areas. First, they are replaceable. I don’t want a military grade mixer in my kitchen if getting a broken whisk or motor on it is going to require me hunting all over eBay for the specific part hoping it’s available. I was very excited at one point about the idea of getting a commercial dishwasher that can run a load of dishes in l…

>>I don’t want a military grade mixer in my kitchen if getting a broken whisk or motor on it is going to require me hunting all over

This is extremely unlikely - military/industrial-grade stuff is designed for heavy duty cycles and decades of use. It is extremely unlikely that you'd see it even hiccup in decades of consumer use.

If you did need a part, the mfgr will have it, because, unlike consumer crap, these products have lifetimes measured in decades, not quarters.

>> is going to suck to make high end pastries because it’s geared towards making mashed potatoes for the troops

not unless you have some specialty unit. And if that is the case, get the industrial version designed for chefs to make industrial quantities of high-grade pastries

Re: Overkill objects for everyday life

#492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Engineered to fail” and “planned obsolescence” are both pejorative rephrasings of “consumers prioritize price” Engineering is an exercise in prioritization. If 90% of consumers buy the cheapest blender on the shelf, the blender made with the cheapest materials wins. Hobart still exists, and still makes good blenders. Consumers just started buying new designs that were more cost efficient. If you look at the prices o…

> “Engineered to fail” and “planned obsolescence” are both pejorative rephrasings of “consumers prioritize price” Yes, and prioritizing price is short term and stupid. Prioritize total cost instead and buy high quality items, it's much cheaper in the long run. Also, high standard of living is not about having your kitchen "full of appliances", it's about health, education and security.

Value engineering is not a idea known only to kitchen appliances engineers. This was just the example at hand.

Many of the products and services that people buy to support their health, education, security, etc have been made more accessible by value engineering either directly, or in their supply chain.

Re: Overkill objects for everyday life

#493
IDK about that one in the article, but I had an M9 knife in SERE school with a wooden handle and I thought it was absolute crap. Just because it gets issued by the military doesn't mean it's good lol

Re: Overkill objects for everyday life

#494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For sure it does. But it’s also common for technologies to mature as they gain widespread use. When I was a kid, something like a preset for popcorn, or a turntable, was an a feature you’d get on a very expensive microwave. Many luxury features of yesteryear are now standard.

I think that scenario may be why so many people have a hatred for value engineering: once cheaper becomes available, the market bifurcates into value-engineered wares for people who don’t care and the high-quality end becomes higher quality and three times the price it used to be. The choices of other customers deny you the continued availability of the optimal price+feature set for your needs & budget.

Yes, we hate value engineering because of this bifurcation (it's real, and I've been whining about it for a while too). But I see it somewhat differently than you described:

> value-engineered wares for people who don’t care

You say it like there is a choice involved here. There isn't. This is something that needs repeating - customers choose out of what's available on the market, not out of the space of all possible products. So all products that are hard to make and sell yourself are primarily vendor-driven.

If a market bifurcates like this, I can't announce my preference for the missing middle at all. The split may have happened against my preferences, or it may have happened before I cared, or it may have happened before I was even in the market for that product category. But once it happened, people who'd prefer something better than barely-fit-for-purpose can't get it.

> high-quality end becomes higher quality and three times the price it used to be

If it becomes higher quality. As you mentioned higher up, it frequently becomes different, as it's no longer targeting a large audience.

> The choices of other customers deny you the continued availability

Yes, but again, what choices? These things stick in a feedback loop, a self-fulfilling prophecy. And it doesn't take people choosing the lower-tier option. It takes a company choosing a somewhat lower quality this year than they did the last year, because if done gradually people won't be able to quickly tell (the very job of marketing is to confuse customers about this).

I hate "revealed preferences", I consider them mostly bullshit given the lack of actual choice - but if we want to frame the situation like this: the bifurcation doesn't require that most of the middle-tier consumers "actually prefer" the cheaper option over the middle one. A company will attempt this even if it meant losing middle-tier customers altogether, as long as they believe the expanding lower-tier customer base will make up for it.

What's even more maddening is the interplay with economies of scale - the middle-tier product could've gotten better and cheaper over time, if its broad customer base wasn't stolen by the low-quality option. So the households that couldn't afford the quality option yesterday, would be able to afford it tomorrow - and today would be making use of used ones, because there is such a thing as a market for used goods, which works best when items are durable. But companies often do try to sabotage it, too.

Also: the downwards quality spiral doesn't stop at a reasonable point, it stops at the lowest point where the customers can be duped en-masse, unless stopped by regulatory means either. I'll happily argue that, for most products, the lowest-priced options shouldn't exist in the first place, because they deliver negative value (after accounting for total use costs, with possible future replacement, which most people don't) and endless frustration. I see them as an environmental disaster.

Re: Overkill objects for everyday life

#495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moreover, consumer items beyond a price point are both very well made and backed by long term warranties anyway. Paying a bit more for a better item which can be repaired or serviced for a very long time makes it cheaper in the long run in my experience, because you buy it once and for life. I love "overkill items for everyday life" point of view, but it comes with trade-offs for noise, ergonomics, size, replaceabili…

The best consumer goods are generally the ones where the design has persisted unmodified for decades. It works, everyone uses it, nobody's improved on it, serviceability is reasonable relative to the essential complexity, and it hasn't been cost-reduced into garbage. "New model" always comes with the worry: What did they fuck up this time? Anything "professional", "military", etc. comes with the potential downside of…

I wish there was more of a culture of long lived product lines. IKEA is shockingly good at this. I had a draw from the Malm product line from 15 years ago, then 5 years ago I got the bed frame in the same set and just now I got another one of the draws and they all fit together and look uniform because their product lines have been mostly the same for decades.

If I break something or need more bits, I can always go back years later and get a matching piece.

Re: Overkill objects for everyday life

#496
post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dishwashers are another example. You could buy a commercial one but it will come with no roll-out trays (you load up different plastic racks for different things and you can load a rack while the dishwasher is running) and it’s designed for an environment with lots of ventilation (you just open it when it is done and let the steam get ventilated away) which people are unlikely to have in their own kitchens. Other ite…

Presuming you have enough workspace to place one of the plastic racks down beside your prewash sink, loading the trays is way more ergonomic than loading+unloading a regular dishwasher. They don't just do it for throughput. Personally, I'd love to have a residential-class dishwasher that has that kind of modular load system. Would be wonderful on my back. > and it’s designed for an environment with lots of ventilatio…

There is a lot I want to appropriate from chemistry labs for my kitchen besides fume hoods, which kind of makes sense because they both overlap in many similar activities for my use case (meal prep once a week to once a month when I have sufficient freezer space). I'm willing to pay the premium for repairability, maintainability and time efficiency to optimize that use case.

Laboratory-grade flooring: epoxy resin. Durable protection, withstand frequent pedestrian traffic. Slip resistance. Impermeable, non-absorbent surface, resists chemical exposure. Low maintenance, easy and economical cleaning and sanitizing properties.

Floor drains and gullies with oil/water separator.

Compressed air supply.

Chilled water supply.

Overhead service carriers for power, chilled water, hot water, natural gas, and air.

Lab-grade furniture, especially countertops.

All packaged in a proven layout taken from modern submarine galley designs.

This isn't from a lab (but from a sushi restaurant), to indicate I don't have a "kitchen as lab" fetish: circulating water Teflon-lined raceway behind all counter runs catches debris that is diverted to a auto-turned compost pile, and the excess moisture of the pile drained off to crops, which in turn drain off to an aquaculture pond.

I could go on, but my ideal dream kitchen would at first glance would probably look like a very cramped lab. "Modern" residential kitchens cause me all kinds of unnecessary movement and labor for my specific use case.

Re: Overkill objects for everyday life

#497
post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A modern Mac laptop uses a motherboard where everything is soldered on, everything is tiny, and it's basically impossible to repair. Leaving aside whether that's good or bad, it's just a fact that you should know up front. Consequently, most failures are "repaired" by swapping the motherboard, and so your flash drive contents are gone. Happily, you are using Time Machine (right?) and so you plug your backup drive int…

Board-Level repair isn't that difficult with the right tools. Plenty of 3rd party repair, as well as Apple's refurbishment do it just fine. The only real reason it's impossible to repair is an artificial lack of parts/documentation.

Ok, sure -- I was lazy. It's sometimes possible, but it doesn't make economic sense.

Paying for people and equipment to can safely swap a motherboard and reassemble the laptop is not cheap, but it's not expensive.

Paying people who can diagnose a fault in a modern motherboard, do the board-level repair, test it, and turn it around to the customer doesn't make sense. Do a quick board swap and be done with it. Maybe forward the faulty board to some central facility for refurb or at least analysis to find out what's breaking in the field.

This isn't unique to Apple -- very little consumer electronics is repaired because it isn't worth the cost.

Now Apple makes the choice to solder everything on the motherboard (both for size & weight, and likely reliability reasons too). That means even peripheral failures junk the whole motherboard. But that's a trade-off they, and their customers, make.

Re: Overkill objects for everyday life

#498

I will postulate an opposing view to TFA: Quality consumer goods are better in two key areas. First, they are replaceable. I don’t want a military grade mixer in my kitchen if getting a broken whisk or motor on it is going to require me hunting all over eBay for the specific part hoping it’s available. I was very excited at one point about the idea of getting a commercial dishwasher that can run a load of dishes in l…

> I was very excited at one point about the idea of getting a commercial dishwasher that can run a load of dishes in like 90 seconds. The reason commercial dishwashers run so fast is that they sanitize dishes, but do not remove food from them. That is done by a restaurant employee. Home dishwashers include soaking and scrubbing to remove food, which takes longer. https://www.reddit.com/r/answers/comments/no3c9j/why_d…

Technology Connections on Youtube has a rather good video on the subject: https://youtu.be/_rBO8neWw04

Re: Overkill objects for everyday life

#499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moreover, consumer items beyond a price point are both very well made and backed by long term warranties anyway. Paying a bit more for a better item which can be repaired or serviced for a very long time makes it cheaper in the long run in my experience, because you buy it once and for life. I love "overkill items for everyday life" point of view, but it comes with trade-offs for noise, ergonomics, size, replaceabili…

> Moreover, consumer items beyond a price point are both very well made and backed by long term warranties anyway. Except that there isn't a good way to distinguish between something that is expensive because it has quality construction and something that is expensive because it is a brand name. Searching for information online is nigh-useless due to aggressive SEO on the part of advertisers. Sometimes I can get luck…

Research is also hampered by non-obvious changes in the product. Even when a good, reliable product is released, it can be modified to be cheaper to make/more expensive to maintain with no external indication. This isn't even necessarily about cost-cutting, a component may no longer be available and is swapped for something that claims to be identical but is not as reliable.

Re: Overkill objects for everyday life

#500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to offer a counterexample, I have a Cammenga 3H compass that I use for camping. The thing is a beast, one of the coolest things I own.

Are you teasing us: do you actually use a compass camping? I've never met someone (who wasn't a Boy Scout) that camps so hard they need a compass! (Said in a joking yet genuinely curious voice.)

Yep, I do! I camp deep in the woods, sometimes alone, and I have a tremendous respect for the danger of getting lost and have several layers of plans to prevent, and react to, that outcome. A good reliable compass is a part of that.
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