France's Minitel service in 1983: online banking, eshopping, and B2B • Hacker News Board

Re: France's Minitel service in 1983: online banking, eshopping, and B2B

#31

Post by Klinky » Wed, Jul 06, 2011, 1:19 PM UTC

nodata wrote: post #27

Klinky wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know! Agencies like ARPANET, NSFNet & CERN were real drains on the Internet. All they provided was huge initial monetary outlays for building the initial backbones & tech like TCP/IP & HTTP. It also appears that the government made the choice to open the network up for commerce. So I guess these centralized agencies setting up the initial infrastructure & later opening it up when personal computers were becoming af…

What? Just because a lot of the stuff started off as government research projects doesn't mean they centrally planned the migration from what it was to what it is now.

Did Apple plan to build the iPod back in the 80s? Did Google plan that they'd build Android back in the 90s?

Just because the government didn't initially plan for the Internet to envelop our lives 30 years later, doesn't mean that it wasn't a successful centrally planned project that benefited society. Most things are centrally planned. Much of private industry relies on centralized chains of command. I am not sure what the OPs point was, but seemed more like a veiled jab that suggested centralized government programs are always failures. When the facts are that Minitel shouldn't be classified as a failure & the Internet shouldn't be classified as a poster child for decentralized initiatives.

Re: France's Minitel service in 1983: online banking, eshopping, and B2B

#32

Post by johncoltrane » Wed, Jul 06, 2011, 1:22 PM UTC

Nicolas___ wrote: post #2

Funny thing is that today, despite the fact that everybody has a broadband connection, Minitel is still used by some people. Specifically for the 2 usages that made its success in the first place : yellow pages and adult chat. A few companies still make significant profit from this platform in 2011. And it's still profitable for France Telecom as well. Low tech works :)

A number of very large logistics/hauling companies were still using it as a sort of extranet a couple of years ago.

Re: France's Minitel service in 1983: online banking, eshopping, and B2B

#33

Post by rbanffy » Wed, Jul 06, 2011, 1:22 PM UTC

I met my first wife on Minitel (Brazil had a several Minitel networks operated by its telcos that operated from the early 80s through mid 90s). I met my second wife at a party.

Re: France's Minitel service in 1983: online banking, eshopping, and B2B

#34

Post by iwwr » Wed, Jul 06, 2011, 1:31 PM UTC

LaGrange wrote: post #17

mikecane wrote: post #7

Everyone hailed Minitel in the 1980s. It was touted as an example of what gov't should do (these were also the days of Japan, Inc. kicking everyone's ass, also showing what gov't "should" do for industry). Yet along came the Black Swan of the Internet to slay it. Central planning never works.

Except the cases where central planning works, like (DUH!) Minitel (until the internet came, it didn't fail, it just got upgraded, duh), going to the Moon (distributed attempt at reaching the moon, also known as the living pyramid), justice system (as soon as you introduce the ability for appeal), the Internet, DNS system (it may be not centralized, but it is centrally planned), Google, Apple, and your own consciousn…

The problem is not that central planning fails to build a certain thing (like a bridge or a road), but that it diverts resources from more productive uses. Things that are built or created are visible, but they obscure the things that might have been created otherwise. We never actually get to know the ways resources might have been allocated otherwise; and indeed these other things may be mundane and boring, yet they are the consequence of the free choices of individuals.

Of course, it can be argued that governments don't just do investments, that they can provide services that may be impossible to obtain otherwise. But when we wonder into real investment territory (like a particular bridge), we have to be able to produce a R.O.I.

What we have to consider is that the alternative uses of the capital will contribute to economic growth and in a longer timeframe, the glamorous visible things like a space program may actually pay for themselves. Not only that, these expenditures will be self-sustaining and long lasting. Or otherwise said, money spent on space (and other visible things) without a R.O.I. is actually detracting from future growth and delaying actual practical space exploration.

Re: France's Minitel service in 1983: online banking, eshopping, and B2B

#35

Post by zwieback » Wed, Jul 06, 2011, 1:41 PM UTC

We were one of the few households in Germany that had BTX, the German equivalent of Minitel. It wasn't free but pretty affordable and had some very useful services. Since banking in Germany never heavily relied on checks everyone was already using direct bank account transfers for payments as long as I can remember, certainly in the 80s. You filled out a standard machine readable slip and dropped it off at your bank and the transfer would happen immediately.

I frequently used BTX to make payments for things I ordered and I seem to remember having a list of one-time use numbers to enter as a security measure. Must have been some kind of electronic signature.

Germany was pretty anti-technology in those days. Instead of hailing early adopters we were frequently criticized as harbingers of a cold and inhumane new world order.

Re: France's Minitel service in 1983: online banking, eshopping, and B2B

#36

Post by arthur_debert » Wed, Jul 06, 2011, 1:53 PM UTC

rbanffy wrote: post #33

I met my first wife on Minitel (Brazil had a several Minitel networks operated by its telcos that operated from the early 80s through mid 90s). I met my second wife at a party.

That is definitely new to me. Granted, I was a child in the 80s but I never new that we had minitels down here. Live and learn.

Re: France's Minitel service in 1983: online banking, eshopping, and B2B

#37

Post by mikecane » Wed, Jul 06, 2011, 1:57 PM UTC

Klinky wrote: post #23

mikecane wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>>some of the biggest services on the Internet are centralized and proprietary. Which all tend to eventually fail. The Source, CompuServe, Delphi, AOL, all failed.

Firstly, suggesting dial-up ISPs failed because they had a centralized business structure makes no sense. That's like saying horse & buggy manufacturers went out of business due to their centralized business structure rather than the introduction of the car. Also for the record AOL is still around & those companies were successful for their time. Second, I was speaking about things like ICANN, root DNS servers, Tier…

I think we are talking at cross-purposes here, in different perspectives, so let's stop.

Re: France's Minitel service in 1983: online banking, eshopping, and B2B

#38

Post by galactus » Wed, Jul 06, 2011, 1:59 PM UTC

snippyhollow wrote: post #15

One of many fun facts: Xavier Niel (controversial CEO of Free, disruptive French ISP) made his first $ - sorry Francs - by selling adult chat on the Minitel.

When I lived in France I loved Free. Best ISP I have ever used

Re: France's Minitel service in 1983: online banking, eshopping, and B2B

#39

Post by rbanffy » Wed, Jul 06, 2011, 2:02 PM UTC

arthur_debert wrote: post #36

rbanffy wrote: post #33

I met my first wife on Minitel (Brazil had a several Minitel networks operated by its telcos that operated from the early 80s through mid 90s). I met my second wife at a party.

That is definitely new to me. Granted, I was a child in the 80s but I never new that we had minitels down here. Live and learn.

It was called "videotexto". Telesp had, AFAIK, the largest install (in terms of pages and functions) but Telerj also had its own network. At that time, it was common for BBSs to support Minitel terminals connecting through 1200/75 (v.23, AFAIK) modems.

http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletexto#No_Brasil

Re: France's Minitel service in 1983: online banking, eshopping, and B2B

#40

Post by rsynnott » Wed, Jul 06, 2011, 2:12 PM UTC

zwieback wrote: post #35

We were one of the few households in Germany that had BTX, the German equivalent of Minitel. It wasn't free but pretty affordable and had some very useful services. Since banking in Germany never heavily relied on checks everyone was already using direct bank account transfers for payments as long as I can remember, certainly in the 80s. You filled out a standard machine readable slip and dropped it off at your bank…

There was also an attempt to introduce a Minitel system here in Ireland. It was ridiculously badly-timed; by the time it was actually up and running, things like Compuserve were around and the first ISPs were only a couple of years away.