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Ask HN: Negotiating Salary

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Re: Ask HN: Negotiating Salary

#151
post #81
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your question resonates a bit with the "Never Split the Difference" method of asking an open ended question immediately after receiving an offer. "Can you explain how you came to this number?" is similar to the "How am I supposed to do this?" kind of open ended question the author uses as an example. Happy you posted this, feel like an idiot that I've never thought of using that exact phrase lol.

> Your question resonates a bit with the "Never Split the Difference" method of asking an open ended question immediately after receiving an offer. "Can you explain how you came to this number?" While the general advice of open ended questions is sound, this question rarely works with companies. They'll simply respond with a vague answer. "We did market research and determined that this is a competitive rate for your…

>You have to counter that showing actual market data that disagrees with them.

Where's the best place to pull this data from?

Re: Ask HN: Negotiating Salary

#152
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'disclaimer', pet peeve coming up. > Disclaimer, I'm a CTO. That's not a disclaimer, it's.. a claim . It's not even a 'disclosure' (which is what people saying 'disclaimer' often mean) really, it's more like a 'source', or just.. remove the word?: > I'm a CTO, here's how I evaluate [...] Sorry, just bugs me.

No worries, valid point. I have ESL (English as Second Language) but noted.

Ah, then no hard feelings I hope; you just picked it up from so many others getting it wrong! It is a common error for sure, just a pet peeve of mine for some reason, so I call it out occasionally.

Re: Ask HN: Negotiating Salary

#153
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'disclaimer', pet peeve coming up. > Disclaimer, I'm a CTO. That's not a disclaimer, it's.. a claim . It's not even a 'disclosure' (which is what people saying 'disclaimer' often mean) really, it's more like a 'source', or just.. remove the word?: > I'm a CTO, here's how I evaluate [...] Sorry, just bugs me.

Seems like "full disclosure" is a perfectly good way to say what they were trying to say. Your version is ok too, but does not have the same implication of "I have a particular bias here, so I am disclosing that so that you read my comment through that lens".

Yes that's fine, disclosure is usually the word 'offenders' are looking for, for sure.

I just thought that here the tone was more 'here's why I can give you a good answer' than 'I'm aware my answer may be biased'.

Basically, the three things that are conflated into 'disclosure' are (all 'for example'):

1. (Disclosure) I have a vested interest in this because I work at the company being discussed [but I really think everything's fine and this isn't an issue];

2. (Actual disclaimer) I left the companh being discussed years ago so I have no knowledge of this issue [but my opinion is..];

3. (Source/background/listen to me!) I work at the company being discussed [so I'll pass on your feedback]

For me this is more a 3 than a 1, because there's no 'but' I suppose is the simple way to put it. You disclose a relationship because it might put what you're saying in a different (worse) light; here it's just why it's worth listening to. (If they'd said 'Company X is the best for negotiating salary IMO', 'I am CTO there though' would be a good disclosure!)

Re: Ask HN: Negotiating Salary

#154
Here's how my salary negotiation usually goes:

"So yeah, your interviews were great and we'd like to move forward. What are your salary requirements? (By the way, we pay really well!)"

"Can you tell me what the position pays? It wasn't clear from the job listing."

"Hahahah, right. No, you must give us a number or else!"

"OK, well if you look at similar positions at [company x, y and z] they pay in this range."

"Hahahah, right. No way we could possibly pay in that range. We were thinking [small percentage of entry-level salary.] Goodbye."

"Yeah, there's no way that could possibly work for me either. Thanks anyway."

Re: Ask HN: Negotiating Salary

#155
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, the follow-up to "how did you get to this number?" is -- whether or not they actually reply in detail -- always "See, I did it this way, and I ended up with this other number. What do you think causes the difference?"

> whether or not they actually reply in detail In my experience, they never do (if they're a decent sized company). > "See, I did it this way, and I ended up with this other number. What do you think causes the difference?" This does work at times to increase your pay, so I recommend it. However, when it doesn't, they are not going to respond to your question. It will be another "We're sorry, but our data suggests ot…

"I appreciate that you're trying to be competitive, and it is a generous offer you have presented. The problem we have is, as you know, that I had pictured something different from a company with your resources. I have shared with you how I arrived at that. If you're not willing to share your process, how can I trust you have my best interest in mind?"

Any good negotiator on the other side of the table would eventually throw you a bone if you are nice, don't relent, ask for reasonable things (if I sign up for you to own the fruits of my labour, I want to know I'm being cared for), and apply the right amounts of awkward silence.

Re: Ask HN: Negotiating Salary

#156
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> whether or not they actually reply in detail In my experience, they never do (if they're a decent sized company). > "See, I did it this way, and I ended up with this other number. What do you think causes the difference?" This does work at times to increase your pay, so I recommend it. However, when it doesn't, they are not going to respond to your question. It will be another "We're sorry, but our data suggests ot…

"I appreciate that you're trying to be competitive, and it is a generous offer you have presented. The problem we have is, as you know, that I had pictured something different from a company with your resources. I have shared with you how I arrived at that. If you're not willing to share your process, how can I trust you have my best interest in mind?" Any good negotiator on the other side of the table would eventual…

With most companies, the issue is that the person you are dealing with is not someone you will have a relationship with. It will not be your new manager. It will be someone from HR. They'll have a salary range, and will be willing to move to near the top depending on how much the hiring manager says how good you are. At an individual level, they don't care if you "trust" them.

If you're asking for something beyond their upper bound, they'll have a few other levers to offer you (more stock, one time sign on bonus, etc). But keep in mind: If the manager said you were "good, but not great", they're not going to go much higher than their initial offer to you.

In all these scenarios, they have zero incentive to discuss how they came up with that number. If you indicate you can't trust them if they don't, they'll agree and drop you and look for another candidate. The HR person is dealing with multiple hires for multiple positions. He/she doesn't have the time to do a detailed discussion with every one. What's more, what is the point of them sharing it? Put yourself in their shoes. They've come up with a compensation strategy for the whole company. If they're offering below market and they know it, your pointing it out to them doesn't strengthen your position. They know the information your providing them. If they were trying to save money, they'll increase the offer. If their policy is to underpay, they're not going to raise the offer unless the hiring manager indicated you're well above average.

> and apply the right amounts of awkward silence.

Silence is awesome for certain scenarios, but not when dealing with an HR person on a compensation package. Remember: Your asking a question (like the one in your comment) does not throw the ball in their court. They'll either ignore you or give you a canned response. Every offer has a deadline, and they'll ping you again near the deadline. If you continue the silence, they'll withdraw the offer and move on.

If you're joining a small company/startup, your tactics will work. Not so with established companies.

There are stories here on HN about people who had been hired, but were not happy with some of the paperwork they were being asked to sign on their first day on the job. They stood their ground and that was their last day at work. If a company is willing to do that after they've gone through the headache of hiring a person, then don't assume that you have any decent leverage with notions of "it's too painful for them to withdraw an offer and hire another person - they'd rather negotiate."

Re: Ask HN: Negotiating Salary

#157
Man, there's some bad advise here.

"I'm very eager to start, and can accept the offer immediately for $X/hr, but if this is the best you can do I'll need Y days to get back to you."

If you phrase it this way, there's basically zero chance they'll revoke the offer they've already extended - it'll just make them a tiny bit worried they've lowballed you and think you might be entertaining other options.

Re: Ask HN: Negotiating Salary

#158
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I appreciate that you're trying to be competitive, and it is a generous offer you have presented. The problem we have is, as you know, that I had pictured something different from a company with your resources. I have shared with you how I arrived at that. If you're not willing to share your process, how can I trust you have my best interest in mind?" Any good negotiator on the other side of the table would eventual…

With most companies, the issue is that the person you are dealing with is not someone you will have a relationship with. It will not be your new manager. It will be someone from HR. They'll have a salary range, and will be willing to move to near the top depending on how much the hiring manager says how good you are. At an individual level, they don't care if you "trust" them. If you're asking for something beyond th…

Contrary to what you might think, I agree with most (if not all) of what you're saying. They might decline to give me a reason to trust them, even after I've given them several opportunities. In that case, I have a strong signal to decline, and they have to do other things very well to compensate.

I'm not saying one should be picky, I'm just saying that if the worker and the employer have very different ideas of the value the worker brings, and one side is not open to discussing their perspective of things, my experience is that doesn't turn into a fruitful partnership with long-term prospects.

At best, it's a temporary gig and then the worker leaves with a bunch of knowledge. It's not a desirable position for anyone. (But that does happen, very often in larger companies, as you say.)

Re: Ask HN: Negotiating Salary

#159

Disclaimer, I'm a CTO. Here's how I evaluate this if I was evaluating you: 1. I already have a salary budget already allocated for this role based on industry average for position and location (but location _could_ be irrelevant depending on skill mostly). 2. I look at your skillset and put you at the bucket for the position where you are at: low-med-high 3. I make my offer based on my evaluation. 4. If you are "wort…

I'm curious, what industry is offering roughly minimum wage (30k) to programmers in the US?

He may not be in the US.

In most of the world you can hire a junior programmer for $30k.

Re: Ask HN: Negotiating Salary

#160

I feel like the comments are fixated on a particular number. It's true, $30/hour is insultingly low for a software engineer. But, it's a data point. That's your current value, because that's what someone is willing to pay. You can say "yes" and start getting $30 every hour, right now. Writing this HN post, $0/hour. Reading this HN post, $0/hour. Saying yes to that offer, $30/hour! Regardless of whether you accept, yo…

> It's true, $30/hour is insultingly low for a software engineer.

It's dependent on location. It's low for the US, but it's high for most of the world.

Even in western Europe that's what engineers with 5 years experience make, and that's not a low cost of living area.

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