It's time for us in the tech world to speak out about cryptocurrency • Hacker News Board

Re: It's time for us in the tech world to speak out about cryptocurrency

#261

Post by mthoms » Sun, May 30, 2021, 9:40 PM UTC

pavlov wrote: post #21

“But it’s like the early Internet!” shouted the Emperor’s coinholders. “The Internet wasn’t yet useful a mere, um, thirteen years after its invention either.” I can see how people in their twenties would fall for this argument because they can’t remember. The reality is that the internet was immediately extremely interesting (either useful or fun) for practically everyone who got access. Email and ftp alone were kill…

The "early internet" comparison is usually presented when talking about how clumsy and slow the technology is in its current state. The argument is certainly not presented in the context of how "fun" it is. There's nothing "fun" about finance (and there never will be).

In the context of technological state (how brittle and obtuse the tools are), the comparison between the two is right on the money IMHO.

I once configured SOCKS on Windows 3.1 so I could connect to the internet over a 9600-baud modem. In those days, unless you were in Academia, you didn't know anyone with an email address. Early Usenet and IRC had very little to offer someone who wasn't a nerd. FTP? MUD gaming? Come on.

You and I found the early internet interesting precisely because we were nerds to begin with. Don't mistake that sentiment for that of the general public. They mostly found it frustrating and boring.

Re: It's time for us in the tech world to speak out about cryptocurrency

#262

Post by coolspot » Sun, May 30, 2021, 9:40 PM UTC

0x0 wrote: post #177

judge2020 wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If everything is considered ‘owned’ based on NFTs, and other stuff relies on that to verify ownership and provide services, then the government talking the physical land only gives them the utility of the land itself, and not the other stuff (eg. The ability to sell the property) - plus, the government superseding a fictional blockchain-backed real estate market is likely to cause a market crash. Blockchains and NFTs…

> "only gives them the utility of the land itself" "only"? I'd say the "utility of the land" IS the only value of "having" land.

Obviously you’re missing that most of any land’s value comes from the fact that it can be wrapped as NFT.

It is well known historic fact that Romans fought for new land knowing that the time will come when you could wrap it into NFT to make finally useful!

Same story with Columbus and his ICO (Initial Columbus Odyssey).

Re: It's time for us in the tech world to speak out about cryptocurrency

#263

Post by shafyy » Sun, May 30, 2021, 9:40 PM UTC

bo1024 wrote: post #175

shafyy wrote: post #96

The issue of the "promise" of cryptos (and blockchain in general) is that it tries to solve problems that are not tech problems. They are mostly political/governmental problems that are solved by a working democracy. In countries where there is no working democracy, the dictator won't give two shits if this NFT proves that you own this piece of land before taking it from you. Blockchain in itself is not something tha…

Actually, my understanding is that cryptocurrencies are having impact in developing countries. They can address hyperinflation, access to financial services, general friction in exchanging money etc.

Do you have a source for this?

For example, Erdogan flat out banned businesses from accepting cryptocurrency when he saw that people were putting their money in cryptos because of the inflation of the Turkish Lira.

It's not like cryptos are a stable currency, either. Question: Wouldn't it make more sense for people in develping countries to buy more stable assets or currencies, or is it not possible to that because of a lack of access?

Re: It's time for us in the tech world to speak out about cryptocurrency

#264

Post by fleddr » Sun, May 30, 2021, 9:41 PM UTC

I could waste a huge amount of time refuting the author's points, but will make it more of a meta comment.

Crypto is vast, complex, and inherently not suitable for binary thinking. I've studied the space for months and have come to the conclusion that crypto is two-sided in almost every aspect.

Many/most coins are speculative, which you can associate with words like "greed" and "casino". Yet also provide wealth savings/growth to people locked out of it in our traditional system.

NFTs are a cruel joke right now, yet ridiculous as they are, may be a precursor to various groundbreaking uses having real utility, in an exponential way.

Smart contracts are largely dysfunctional, yet there's early success in replacing financial products like staking, lending, leverage. When it works, it's permission-less, which has interesting social benefits (access not defined by your identity/social class).

And so on.

I'm not here to debate any of these points, my only point is to not dismiss crypto as a whole (binary thinking) and to not underestimate it. The topic is too complex for it.

Re: It's time for us in the tech world to speak out about cryptocurrency

#265

Post by CyberRabbi » Sun, May 30, 2021, 9:41 PM UTC

idlewords wrote: post #12

CyberRabbi wrote: post #7

It’s hyperbole to say Bitcoin has no social benefit. It, at least, allows individuals to exchange payments between each other online without needing the consent of any private corporation or monopoly. Maybe it’s not the most efficient way of doing it but decentralization has a cost. I think we are all patiently waiting for better alternatives.

Those individuals need the consent of at least two private corporations (whatever entity converts spendable money to Bitcoin and back on either end). Compare that to sending an envelope full of dollars.

> Those individuals need the consent of at least two private corporations

Not true, you can exchange Bitcoin locally with other individuals. Mailing paper money or checks over postal service is not comparable to making payments using Bitcoin online. Especially when considering international payments.

Re: It's time for us in the tech world to speak out about cryptocurrency

#266

Post by sentrysapper » Sun, May 30, 2021, 9:41 PM UTC

willhslade wrote: post #145

alecbz wrote: post #118

Isn't all currency more or less a "pyramid scheme" in the sense that Bitcoin is? I wish we had more subtlety in our discourse. It feels like it's all either blind admiration or blind condemnation. Bitcoin is trying to be a new currency. Currencies more or less operate on "collective delusion". I think many people scratching their heads at why Bitcoin is worth anything _are_ missing something, which is why any currenc…

This is and is not true. The implicit value of a currency is backed by being able to tax the citizens. This is why there are federal but not state / province level currencies as the friction of conversion is a dead weight loss.

"Trust is the raw material from which all types of money are minted".

You make a valid point, I do trust that our government will come to collect what's due from the citizens, but what about the corporations?

Worth noting there are quite a number of what are known as Community currencies still active in the US & Canada:

USA: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_community_currencies...

Canada: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_community_currencies...

Re: It's time for us in the tech world to speak out about cryptocurrency

#267

Post by shafyy » Sun, May 30, 2021, 9:41 PM UTC

sneak wrote: post #240

shafyy wrote: post #96

The issue of the "promise" of cryptos (and blockchain in general) is that it tries to solve problems that are not tech problems. They are mostly political/governmental problems that are solved by a working democracy. In countries where there is no working democracy, the dictator won't give two shits if this NFT proves that you own this piece of land before taking it from you. Blockchain in itself is not something tha…

The nice thing about Bitcoin is that it doesn't have a jurisdiction or location[1]; you can solve some problems in some places via a functioning government, but Bitcoin solves some problems in all places simultaneously. [1]: this is not to claim, as some do, that it is unregulatable, although it may be.

What problem does Bitcoin solve?

Re: It's time for us in the tech world to speak out about cryptocurrency

#268

Post by idlewords » Sun, May 30, 2021, 9:42 PM UTC

delaaxe wrote: post #156

idlewords wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm the author of the thread. For what it's worth, I grew up as a refugee whose mother had to find incredibly inventive ways to send USD to family back home, where it was illegal to possess. What I don't understand about the crypto remittances argument is how the people sending and receiving them are supposed to convert them into spendable currency. My hunch is that a lot of the value of cryptocurrency in those count…

If you really are a refugee and suffered inflation then this should begin to change your mind: https://reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/nobj1h/real_mai... Otherwise I don’t know what else to say

If you look at that thread, people are relying on a company called Reserve, that essentially issues its own currency (a 'stablecoin'). This is the part that I don't get—how is it cryptocurrency when you are relying on trusted third parties?

Re: It's time for us in the tech world to speak out about cryptocurrency

#269

Post by seoaeu » Sun, May 30, 2021, 9:42 PM UTC

onelastjob wrote: post #44

If you're in rural India and don't have access to a bank account, but you do have internet access via a smartphone, then I could definitely see cryptocurrency being valuable to you. And that doesn't even take into account countries like Venezuela that are experiencing hyperinflation, where cryptocurrency would be much more useful. There are cryptocurrencies that are energy efficient and have low (or even zero) transa…

How exactly do you imagine that an unbanked person living in rural India would be able use cryptocurrency? It isn't like they can just enter their credit card into a website and buy some. Not to mention that even if they someone managed to acquire some, the $5+/transaction fees are going to make something like bitcoin or ethereum completely impractical.

Re: It's time for us in the tech world to speak out about cryptocurrency

#270

Post by mondoveneziano » Sun, May 30, 2021, 9:43 PM UTC

mettamage wrote: post #217

skrebbel wrote: post #50

These two resonated with me: > A lot of intelligent observers look at cryptocurrency, see that it makes no sense, and reasonably infer that they must be missing something profound on the technical level. Tech culture has a nice tradition of not deriding new ideas, but we need to break it here and speak out > [non-tech people] don't see the huge silent majority of tech people who know it's a scam. That's on us It is o…

It’s not on tech people to evaluate business impact or societal impact or economic impact. Sure, tech people could do that but most of our time is spent on designing or implementing software. Let other people (non-tech or hybrid) comment on the idea. They have time to think about this. Tech people can only help by explaining in understandable ways how blockchain/cryptocurrencies work. 3Blue1Brown has a good video on…

Understanding proof-of-work down to the very details, I can make some evaluations based on simple technical properties. For example, Bitcoin can never become "more efficient": If efficiency of computing hashes goes up, difficulty goes up to counteract this, and the energy usage remains the same.

This is different from almost everything else, where advances in technology that increase efficiency are usually a direct benefit.

All this energy goes into what is essentially a lottery for miners. Except for 6 hashes per hour, all of the literally 100.000.000.000.000.000.000 hashes per second get thrown away entirely, not even advancing the same miner, the same ASIC, towards one of the qualifying 6 hashes per hour.