Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1 • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#461

Post by r00fus » Sun, May 30, 2021, 3:46 PM UTC

franga2000 wrote: post #436

bradleyjg wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the end of the day your remedy is to sue someone. Everything else is a courtesy shortcut.

I don't know about you, but where I'm from, consumer protection laws exist specifically so consumers don't have to sue in these cases. Providing a fair refund process is their legal duty, not a courtesy.

Why is Amazon allowed to conflate inventory (Fulfilled by Amazon) without any legal issues? It almost seems they’re above the law. Why would they be legally required to follow customer protection laws?

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#462

Post by Ekaros » Sun, May 30, 2021, 3:46 PM UTC

josephcsible wrote: post #438

rkalla wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like others have said - be careful with this option - there are a LOT Of examples in the Google Fi forums about people doing a chargeback with Google because of charges they felt were fair or fraudulent via Google Fi, and next thing they know their Google Account (Photos, Docs, Email, etc.) is disabled. I would watch the same thing with Amazon (Music, Alexa, Photos, AWS, etc.)

One thing I've always wondered: since credit cards generally have relatively pro-consumer policies, why didn't they just take the next logical step and write "retaliation for chargebacks isn't allowed" into their merchant agreements?

Because the companies might just stop accepting them or actually start fighting. Also the current state is good for both merchants and credit cards. Issues are quietly solved and problems go away, permanently.

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#463

Post by cmckn » Sun, May 30, 2021, 3:47 PM UTC

jimmaswell wrote: post #445

cmckn wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The open box thing is a huge issue. I bought probably 5 things last year >$100 sold as “new” that just weren’t. Returns have always been easy, I live near an Amazon Go and they even have an attendant that helps. But not being able to trust that a new item is actually new is…shitty. I would never buy electronics from Amazon, just get it for the same price at Best Buy and wait a couple more days (plus they often have s…

I've never seen a decent price at a Best Buy. At least here everything is marked up.

It’s generally the same price that anyone else has, with the exception of small items like cabling or accessories. It can be hard to get a price-match on that type of thing, because the brands are more niche/whitelabel.

I think Best Buy is the absolute best ;) place to buy a TV; good prices, huge selection, always handled carefully. YMMV!

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#464

Post by hoppyhoppy2 » Sun, May 30, 2021, 3:48 PM UTC

TheRealPomax wrote: post #417

This sounds like what should happen, irrespective of the seller? You can claim you got an empty box, but everyone's on the internet here, and pictures of an empty box with indignation as guide text gets you fake internet points on every social media site. That alone isn't enough for any seller to take your claim as true until you take the necessary steps that come with "I've been defrauded", like filing that credit c…

>The Chiles filed a credit card dispute and made a crime report, and after The Denver Channel made its own inquiries and the Chiles tried emailing Amazon owner Jeff Bezos directly, Amazon relented and said that the $7,000 will be refunded once the credit card dispute had been resolved.

It sounds like Amazon refused to refund their money until the media got involved.

Also, even if that were not the case, a big part of what Amazon sells is convenience and (supposedly) great customer service. If you pay $7,000 only to receive an empty box, and you provide Amazon with evidence from UPS that the box's weight was less than the weight of the actual product, that should be all it takes to get your money back.

Jumping through hoops with your credit card company and filing a police report should be the last resort for dealing with shitty companies that won't listen to anything but threats. There is no reason that the buyer should have to do that when dealing with a reputable company, especially when they have evidence from the shipper that the box did not contain the product they ordered.

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#465

Post by fooblat » Sun, May 30, 2021, 3:49 PM UTC

dalai wrote: post #190

neiman wrote: post #168

I used to live for many years in a "bad" area of Berlin, where my packages were constantly disappearing, not arriving, taken by neighbors (who put an X as a signature), or left by the delivery people outside our building door. After a few such accidents, each of it super tiring on its own to get things reshipped or reimbursed (and often I failed), I decided all this modernity is not for me. Nowadays I rather buy what…

In Germany you can also have them ship to a Packstation or directly to the post office - at least most of the time. This has worked well so far. The only problem I had was that sometimes they drop them off at a neighbor even when I am at home. At least nowadays the name of the neighbor is printed on the notice they leave in the mailbox (and is also included in the email notification) so X instead of signature doesn't…

This drove me crazy when I lived in Berlin.

I did some research and you don't have to put up with it. Contact Amazon DE customer service and tell them to put a note on your account that you do not consent to any changes to the delivery address. Legally you don't even have to do this but it makes the next calls go easier.

If DHL leaves your package someplace else, like with a neighbor, that is between DHL and Amazon has to sort out.

When next package was left with at a nearby building, I immediately contacted Amazon and informed them my package was not delivered to the correct address. I refused any and all suggestions that I go look for the package. I just repeatedly asked when I can expect delivery to the correct order address. They ended up shipping a replacement.

After standing my ground on this a few times with Amazon, DHL stopped leaving my packages with other people.

DHL doesn't their best to push last mile delivery costs onto you but you don't have to accept it.

edit: typos

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#466

Post by KyleJune » Sun, May 30, 2021, 3:49 PM UTC

matsemann wrote: post #55

cbmuser wrote: post #17

> This was despite the fact that when boxed the Sony a1 weighs 3.22 lb (1.46 kg), and the Chiles’ package was listed by UPS as weighing only 2 lb (900 g). Not sure why Amazon was still arguing at this point. If UPS confirms the package was basically empty, then Amazon has no reason to believe the customer was lying.

Probably like in "The Rainmaker". Automatically deny every claim above $X. If there's a complaint on the denial, automatically approve or deny based on a new number $Y. Most people give up before you finally get a real human to actually check the case.

I once ordered a DSLR camera kit from Amazon for around $750. It had a bunch of lenses but the lens adapter it was suppose to come with was missing. The adapter cost about $15 so I reported it was missing the adapter and asked if they could either send me one or refund me $15 so I could buy one off Amazon. They gave me 2 choices instead of reading my request, return it or accept a partial refund of 30%. I accepted the partial refund because I didn't want to return/re-order the camera kit and hope that it doesn't happen again. I felt kind of bad accepting such a large refund for a small problem.

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#467

Post by Vake93 » Sun, May 30, 2021, 3:53 PM UTC

Happened to me as well. I got a Asus ROG Strix G15 laptop on 13 May(this month) and upon clearance from Sri Lankan customs (where I live) the UPS agents discovered that the contents was missing. UPS notified me this and report this to Amazon. They(UPS) held the package with them and didn’t deliver it to me as it was empty.

Even in the commercial invoice the gross weight of the laptop package was just 1.81KG! The laptop itself weighs about 2.3KG!

When I connected Amazon support they basically said that the package was delivered and they did an investigation the the weights are correct as well.

The UPS has filed a claim with Amazon and Amazon is not responding to UPS even and insists I obtain a police report. I didn’t even receive the package. Shouldn’t UPS and Amazon sort this out?

We are under lock down due to COVID and I can’t go to a police station to make the complaint.

Now I don’t have the laptop or a refund…

This costed me about 1700 usd with shipping. It’s not a cost I can afford to just write off.

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#468

Post by felixfbecker » Sun, May 30, 2021, 3:59 PM UTC

aristophenes wrote: post #299

gambiting wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm genuinely surprised that people have such vastly different experiences with Amazon. I made 231 orders with them last year(lockdown....) And haven't had a problem with a single one. Couple times I wanted to return something they just refunded me without asking to send the item back. Everything arrives next day, always(here in UK anyway), and the customer support is stellar compared to literally anywhere else. Anyo…

It really is location dependent, since most of the problems are caused by the shipper. Amazon will use multiple shippers, and in some areas will use what ends up being people driving around in their personal cars to deliver packages. If you have unreliable shippers in your area, it’s hard to deal with Amazon when things go wrong. In one place I lived, Amazon would use the US Postal Service, UPS, and Fedex. I had no c…

I don't get why Amazon doesn't allow the customer to chose between multiple available shipping carriers. They do for returns, which is fantastic and one of the reasons I love buying on Amazon, because I can always chose to pick the carrier that has the office 1 minute walk away from my home that is never busy, instead of being forced to drive to some remote store and stand in line.

If Amazon gave these choices to customers for shipping, it would apply pressure to shipping carriers to improve their service, as people would experiment and pick the best ones and stop picking bad ones. Eventually a bad carrier is forced to improve to not lose revenue. And Amazon would get way happier customers, who can pick what is best in their region, and they would have a massive advantage over smaller shops.

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#469

Post by verall » Sun, May 30, 2021, 3:59 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #66

reikonomusha wrote: post #3

I do not trust Amazon to ship anything safely and securely anymore. Almost everything I receive is damaged, late, or mis-delivered. Books are especially abused somewhere in Amazon’s fulfillment. (They’re always bent, creased, or dirty.) Items that are supposed to be 1-day shipping typically take >=3, and Amazon’s tracking mostly says “oops! it’ll come trust us”. (Not verbatim, obviously.) Amazon’s return process is b…

I'm genuinely surprised that people have such vastly different experiences with Amazon. I made 231 orders with them last year(lockdown....) And haven't had a problem with a single one. Couple times I wanted to return something they just refunded me without asking to send the item back. Everything arrives next day, always(here in UK anyway), and the customer support is stellar compared to literally anywhere else. Anyo…

The commingled inventory problem is seriously a United States thing, from what I have heard. It is a frustrating situation here in the US where lots of spoilable goods are available on Amazon but if you purchase them, they are spoiled. Deodorant, cereal, protein bars, tape, everyone has stories.

A Japanese friend said he could Amazon order a particular variety of candy and it would arrive next-day in good condition and I felt jealous. In America there really is no such service for ordering food or spoilable items online.

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#470

Post by chakhs » Sun, May 30, 2021, 4:03 PM UTC

an_opabinia wrote: post #378

ageitgey wrote: post #215

Like most people, I've ordered a lot of packages (hundreds?) on Amazon and almost never had a problem. In the rare case of a problem, Amazon would instantly refund me. But almost all those orders are under $1000. Everything changes when you have a problem with an expensive order. Amazon has a price threshold where the support system is different and the normal CS people are powerless. During lockdown, I ordered a Son…

I'm afraid of being downvoted, but the algorithm for an Amazon return looks something like: Your LTV = Forecasting total revenue from your transactions so far Revenue = The sum of your past transactions Refund? = LTV - Revenue - Refund Cost > 0 This is a much simpler, much more logical model. It appears everywhere, like with credit card disputes or when you get service discounts to not leave. Because when you don't g…

Not sure I follow, if this happens to some customer (who are in the right) they shouldn't get a refund? And this is considered just because it saves investigation spending?

If Amazon chooses to refund without question to save disputes money, that's their choice. But it's not the customer's problem. If you pay for something and you don't receive it, you must get refunded.