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Remains of 215 children found at former residential school in British Columbia

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Re: Remains of 215 children found at former residential school in British Columbia

#181

Post by SZJX »

brailsafe wrote: post #136
FooBarBizBazz wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> “Killing a people” is genocide. But people do change their identities all the time. And sometimes the destruction of one identity leads to the creation of a new one. This has been a key part of all nation-building exercises. It is a purpose of education and mass-media. Is the unification of tribes, the destruction of difference, necessarily "genocide"? Also, if you can speak of the "death of a people", surely you c…

The attempted unification of tribes by removing their identity is different than unification. Unification is only so if whatever happens is a joint proposal of some sort

This distinction sounds quite contrived to me. Surely you could see that, in most cases throughout the history, when a united identity emerges out of several different tribes/groups whatsoever, there would be a leading group that exerted greater influence either by force or by (economic etc.) strength. Seldom is the case that all tribes decided that they were absolutely equal and would form a joint entity with the same amount of voluntariness from each side.

Re: Remains of 215 children found at former residential school in British Columbia

#182

Post by SZJX »

maximilianburke wrote: post #107
kyralis wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect you'll find relatively few people who will use "genocide" to refer to the eradication of a culture without concurrent mass killing of the members of that culture.

I think the most notable genocides have involved murder, but that doesn't mean they all have. Look at what is happening to the Uyghur people in China; it appears to be more of an operation to destroy their culture and identity than to slaughter the people, at least at the moment.

This is also why the current definition by some western governments/parliaments of what's happening there as "genocide" has credibility issues in some eyes. If everybody suddenly agreed that "genocide" means "systematic attempt at cultural assimilation" then fine (would also mean that such "genocides" have been taking place all the time, since group identities disappear and reappear in an endless ebb and flow, maybe not so much in the modern world with all these nation borders, but much more commonly throughout the history), but just as this chain of comment reveals, 1. a more universally accepted term (also in e.g. the Canadian government's own report) would be "cultural genocide" and seldom would people use "genocide" to mean something without actual mass murdering 2. even the idea of "cultural genocide" is to some extent subject to debate.

Re: Remains of 215 children found at former residential school in British Columbia

#183

Post by thedmstdmstdmst »

brailsafe wrote: post #135
thedmstdmstdmst wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you investigate you will find that the CURRENT Canadian Government released a report saying the CURRENT treatment of indigenous in Canada is an ongoing genocide. Specifically for the eradication of culture you mentioned. Matters very little what people like yourself who are far away from any impacts want to call it, it's still happening.

I don't think it's irrelevant. If the current population is on board with adopting a more equitable relationship with the other cultures bthat were here first, then that stands a better chance at succeeding.

Well just so you know the past populations were not necessarily more in love with the treatment of indigenous.

Here is an editorial from 1888 about the first Prime Minister of Canada and his starvation of indigenous, doesn't necessarily seem to me that everyone was on board with the treatment back in 1888.[1]

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:1888_Editorial_carto...

Also a better chance of what succeeding? Do you know the history of Canada? The displacement of indigenous was the point of the policies.

Re: Remains of 215 children found at former residential school in British Columbia

#184

Post by SZJX »

at_a_remove wrote: post #21

This is one incident among many, but it has less to do with indigenous children as it does with any system wherein the accounting of "disconnected" children is left to that system. Tuam, County Galway ... eight hundred infants with missing graves. St Mary's Cemetery in Lanark, four hundred left in a single mass grave. In Germany, nuns pimping out orphans. The Sisters of Mercy scandal. I could go on. Bluntly put, when…

This said, some children are genuinely better off in the hands of some state-sponsored foster care (especially more modern ones) than in the hands of some neglectful/abusive parents. I have always been of the opinion that being a parent is a job that requires certain skills just like any other, and not everybody is well-qualified to do the job well, while the traditional society puts pressure on everybody to take the job regardless, which could be very dangerous.

The problem with the abuses that we're discussing, as described by somebody down the chain, could be that the church and the foster care institutes are set up in a way so that they are already designated as "special" from the get go. I still don't know if that what's described in Brave New World, i.e. every child in the whole society being raised collectively, is such a bad idea. The author's apparent derision and demonization of such an idea was the most jarring part when I read the book. In fact, many studies have proposed that the whole idea of "marriage" and "nuclear family" is a quite recent invention, or at least is something that was not shared by all hunter-gatherer societies, many of which did raise their children as a group. In fact one could well argue that the strict adherence to monogamy and to one nuclear family is contrary to the human nature, which the incredibly high rate of divorce in the modern society seems to support to a certain degree.

Ironically, the very idea of "marriage" and "nuclear family" seems to be something heavily promoted, even enshrined, by the Christian religions, which themselves committed such atrocious crimes on children.

I guess my main point is, your position seems to be one that emphasizes the importance of "family", while I've always been wary of the idea of elevation of "marriage" and "family" as something of a doctrine, even sacred and not subject to any debate. This idea has always sounded very traditional and potentially irrational to me.

Re: Remains of 215 children found at former residential school in British Columbia

#185

Post by fmajid »

bhouston wrote: post #48
throwcanada_ wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose it’s being downvoted because it looks like diversion tactics to draw attention away from what’s actually being discussed, especially considering their other comment making a false assessment of the linked article, as pointed out by throwaway24006. Disclosure: not related to that other throwaway account in any way. Using a throwaway because I don’t want to drag my main account into ugly topics like this.

The downvoting happened before someone pointed out the concern with that comment. So that probably isn't the cause. That said, I have amended the specific comment that was wrong to correct it. I've never seen so many throwaways appear out of nowhere before.

I thought you had to have a minimum amount of karma before you can downvote, which would preclude throwaway accounts?

Re: Remains of 215 children found at former residential school in British Columbia

#186

Post by SZJX »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #154
elliekelly wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like the Catholic Church is often (always?) somehow involved in these systemic child abuse/mass grave stories and it’s mind-boggling to me that we continue to allow an organization with that kind of track record to take responsibility for caring for and placing at-risk children.

Celibacy imho plays a significant role in this. In other churches, you can get normal people to join, because they can still live relatively normal lives, get married, have kids, etc. With celibacy, you immediatly dismiss all people who wish to live relatively "normal" lives, and get a lot more outcasts into the organization. Add to this a relatively easy access to children, the higher ups giving protection to crimin…

Celibacy might have played a role, though I doubt if the logic is that it "attracts outcasts". If somebody made up their mind to be celibate regardless of whether he is a part of the church or not, I don't think joining the church would predispose them to enacting more abuses on the children.

On the contrary, I would say that the effect could be that it places an unreasonable restriction on "non-outcast" people who otherwise would have wanted to have sex "normally", but were forced to not do so, at least out in the open, when they join the church. Then, their immediate and most obvious choice becomes turning to the children, as you mentioned. This is what I find unreasonable about this blanket celibacy requirement.

Re: Remains of 215 children found at former residential school in British Columbia

#187

Post by fmajid »

beloch wrote: post #151
dade_ wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These children weren’t abandoned, they were forcefully taken from their families by the government. They were sent vast distances to these boarding schools to “kill the Indian in the child”, where they were often mistreated, sexually abused, and went missing ( murder/neglect/ abuse). So it is all the more egregious in this case. The government turned a blind eye to the Churches, and the Churches were doing God’s work…

Hunter-gatherer societies across the world have, historically, fared poorly when agricultural or pastoral societies have moved into their territory. Complete extermination (i.e. genocide) or complete assimilation is the rule , not the exception. Such genocides happened all over the world but have mostly passed out of living memory with the winners preferring not to be reminded of them. This didn't happen in Canada fo…

Sometimes the genocide runs in the opposite direction, e.g. the Janjaweed (pastoralists) militia in Darfur, Sudan. Global warming led to a drought, the farmers enclosed their lands to prevent grazing, and the Sudanese government used the ensuing tensions to enroll the Janjaweed in their militia. Whether pastoralists qualify as hunter-gatherers depends on your definition, of course, but they are certainly mobile.

And of course, on a much grander scale you have Temujin (Genghis Khan) and the Mongols.

Re: Remains of 215 children found at former residential school in British Columbia

#188

Post by fmajid »

refurb wrote: post #25
fmajid wrote: post #9

And then there is the forced sterilization of indigenous women that is still happening , specially in Alberta: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/sterilization-indigenous-1....

Your article references what’s happening in Saskatoon which is not in Alberta? And the claim is coerced sterilization.

The typical scenario is an indigenous woman going to the hospital to give birth, and the doctor refusing to give her the newborn until she "agrees" to ligation. It's not official government policy, just as killing people for driving while black is not official government policy in the US, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen, nor that it is punished when found out.

Re: Remains of 215 children found at former residential school in British Columbia

#189

Post by fmajid »

dghughes wrote: post #159

I'd be willing to be that at the time any orphanage or boarding school at the time would have similar problems. There were so-called British "Home Children" orphans sent over to Canada to work housed at private homes. There are many stories how they suffered the same fate. Even in my province an orphanage of local children one of the typical heritage British/Irish/Scottish/French, they also suffered terrible abuse. T…

Also to Australia, were they were often physically and sexually abused. Being white does not always protect you from government or private callousness.

Re: Remains of 215 children found at former residential school in British Columbia

#190

Post by FooBarBizBazz »

SZJX wrote: post #180
FooBarBizBazz wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So then the act rises to this special tier because of the belief, in the mind of the actor, that the victims believe themselves to belong to a common group. And the goal, to the actor, is not so much killing, as it is the destruction of the belief in each victim's mind, that they belong to the group. The destruction of the body and mind holding the belief is just a means to this end. This is all very strange.

You have a very good point. Seems to me happened is that the definition of "genocide" connected to a specific "people" has its roots in the definition of other war crimes. The concept became especially prominent after WWII. Before that I don't think such a distinction was so firmly rooted in people's minds. Sure, it's a way to enshrine the historical importance of the Nazi extermination of the Jews, and it might have…

Moreover, a deliberate campaign to eradicate another group's identity, is now something that can be carried out by PR professionals. It puts into perspective that the most powerful companies in the world are in the business of advertising. Or, to use provocative language that is literally true: mind control.
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