Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1 • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#151

Post by ALittleLight » Sun, May 30, 2021, 8:46 AM UTC

adimitrov wrote: post #49

dstaley wrote: post #35

This is certainly one of those instances where I'd raise hell, but I actually avoid trying to file lost item claims with Amazon for smaller ticket items. I know they have automated systems in place to prevent fraud, and I'm terrified that reporting for smaller ticket items will get my Amazon account banned. I've had a friend have this happen with his Doordash account; the sushi place he orders from a lot was pretty b…

That's perverse. You shouldn't have to self-censor out of fear. The fact that Amazon (Doordash, Google, ...) can get away with just cancelling people's accounts willy nilly and they'd have no recourse is a gaping hole in regulations. BTW, it's off-topic, but this right here is the among best arguments we can make for strong privacy, and against mass surveillance. If people are willing to swallow monetary damage out o…

It's a cost of doing business, not really a fear. I can't recall this happening to me, but if Amazon did make an error or damage a minor thing or whatever I wouldn't object because I would object if it were a major thing and I want to maintain a good record to make it more likely I automatically win any major objections in future. The cost of this strategy is accepting any minor loss from Amazon and the benefit is an increased likelihood of good service for major items.

The only error I can recall from Amazon is they once included an exacto knife I didn't order in a package to me.

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#152

Post by Reason077 » Sun, May 30, 2021, 8:47 AM UTC

garmaine wrote: post #134

zerocrates wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder actually where this stuff happens typically. Clearly some seems to happen before things even get to Amazon, that whole counterfeit commingling thing you hear about, where the 3rd-party stock gets used even if you buy from Amazon directly. (How this could be worth it to do at all vs. the reputational damage is unclear but I guess they're always chasing the small efficiencies... still you'd think it would be e…

> I wonder actually where this stuff happens typically. Clearly some seems to happen before things even get to Amazon, that whole counterfeit commingling thing you hear about, where the 3rd-party stock gets used even if you buy from Amazon directly. This is actually largely Amazon's fault, as far as I understand it. People buy obviously counterfeit items, then buy the real thing on Amazon, and return the counterfeit…

> "Amazon has no concept of "open box" vs "new,""

Yes they do. There is a large section of the website ("Amazon Warehouse deals") devoted to open-box items. I've used this a few times and got great prices on perfect items, just with opened or damaged packaging.

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#153

Post by rkk3 » Sun, May 30, 2021, 8:51 AM UTC

wyattpeak wrote: post #114

rkk3 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the end of the day most big companies have found its a better strategy to trust/not dispute customers in these situations. If they wanted to I don't think that would hold up, it's not as though you are opening it in a controlled supervised environment.

> At the end of the day most big companies have found its a better strategy to trust/not dispute customers in these situations. The article we're responding to, not to mention the comments, is evidence that that is at minimum an unreliable assumption. Re your second point, the seemingly standard way of resolving these issues after the company refuses to comply is to make it a PR problem for the company. Videos are go…

> The article we're responding to... is evidence that that is at minimum an unreliable assumption.

They were already refunded before the story was even published. Yes, Amazon didn't refund them 7K in their first customer support call, that ruffled their feathers but it is not at all surprising. At that $ obviously they need to be be escalated.

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#154

Post by ant6n » Sun, May 30, 2021, 8:52 AM UTC

sneak wrote: post #118

dawnerd wrote: post #39

This is what chargebacks are for and even if you get banned over it for this much money I’d say it’s worth it, heck for 7k I’d take it to court. Would be an easy judgement based on the label weights alone.

Bringing a civil suit against Amazon will cost you several multiples of $7k in legal fees.

Isn’t it a small claims court case?

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#155

Post by Shacklz » Sun, May 30, 2021, 8:54 AM UTC

dalbasal wrote: post #117

suifbwish wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I was a god I would never send anyone to hell to burn forever in fiery torment. For this situation I would be very very tempted to make an exception. Anyone who sets up an automated system designed specifically to hassle people for seeking recourse for being wronged, deserves every form of torture they get.

Hell would be full before you got very far. Intentionally or unintentionally, this is how most such systems work... even ostensibly noncommercial ones... at least to some extent. Business systems are a chain of events. Every event has x% chance of happening and leading to the next one. If the next event makes money, it's optimized up. If it costs money, it's optimised down. Efforts to pay unclaimed rebates are never…

> Thus is life.

No, such is full-blown neoliberal capitalism, where the only thing that is considered worth optimizing for is profit.

Once you accept that there are other variables that deserve consideration and cannot just be abstracted by price and profit alone (most prominently customer and workforce satisfaction), other optimizations will come into play, which will reduce the amount of crap people have to deal with, and will ultimately lead for a better experience for everyone involved - except for the very few at the top, which are currently reaping all the profits.

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#156

Post by plank_time » Sun, May 30, 2021, 8:55 AM UTC

matsemann wrote: post #55

cbmuser wrote: post #17

> This was despite the fact that when boxed the Sony a1 weighs 3.22 lb (1.46 kg), and the Chiles’ package was listed by UPS as weighing only 2 lb (900 g). Not sure why Amazon was still arguing at this point. If UPS confirms the package was basically empty, then Amazon has no reason to believe the customer was lying.

Probably like in "The Rainmaker". Automatically deny every claim above $X. If there's a complaint on the denial, automatically approve or deny based on a new number $Y. Most people give up before you finally get a real human to actually check the case.

This is what Tesla is doing with their solar roof product. They raised prices by 50% even though people already had signed contracts. All their communication is incredibly insidious, telling people that they need to sign the new contract, when in fact that’s false, in hopes of convincing customers to cancel their order. I can’t wait until a class action lawsuit rips them a new asshole at this point.

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#157

Post by confiq » Sun, May 30, 2021, 8:59 AM UTC

odnes wrote: post #128

This this a clear cut case and amazon should process the refund, however, in general refunding is a hard problem for Amazon to solve due to the sheer volume fraud that occurs. For anyone unaware, go to telegram and do a public search for 'refunding'. There are hundreds of channels where you can pay someone to refund >£10,000 of stuff for you for a 10% fee. Afaik, the main method that 'refunders' use to defraud amazon…

> So it looks to amazon as being successfully delivered to the return warehouse, but what actually got delivered was a brick, to some random house

but how amazon does not check the quality of the return? I mean, even if UPS confirms that the package arrived to right address, wouldn't someone from amazon warehouse check if the package is valid?

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#158

Post by Kiro » Sun, May 30, 2021, 9:03 AM UTC

Whenever there's an article about an obvious outlier case (still outrageous in its own of course) you can assume that the top comment will be general complaints about said company's decline, often not representative of people's experience as a whole.

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#159

Post by ed_elliott_asc » Sun, May 30, 2021, 9:05 AM UTC

klintcho wrote: post #100

gambiting wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm genuinely surprised that people have such vastly different experiences with Amazon. I made 231 orders with them last year(lockdown....) And haven't had a problem with a single one. Couple times I wanted to return something they just refunded me without asking to send the item back. Everything arrives next day, always(here in UK anyway), and the customer support is stellar compared to literally anywhere else. Anyo…

Chiming in here as well; I always trust Amazon to refund me if something is missing or broken without any hassle. A lot of other retailers always gives you a hard time even though they are at fault. They have a huge problem with counterfeit but again always easy to get your money back.

I never had a problem with counterfeit goods until I received a fake board game - took me a while to realise it was fake (horrible quality) - when I did they refunded and I got another one that was real - fine.

Since then though I won’t use Amazon for anything remotely safety related, think child car seat - nope, some equipment for rewiring house, nope.

This also makes me think about higher end purchases, whereas before I was like 100% Amazon, they have lost the trust I had for them and doubt they will get that back.

My main issue is that by the time I realised it was fake the game had been stopped and seller removed so they probably knew the game they sent me was fake (because of other complaints) but they made zero attempt to put it right. It seems if customers report fakes, customers who potentially also received fakes are not alerted and that is a real problem for me.

Re: Amazon refused to refund $7k after shipping an empty box instead of a Sony A1

#160

Post by dalbasal » Sun, May 30, 2021, 9:05 AM UTC

Shacklz wrote: post #155

dalbasal wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hell would be full before you got very far. Intentionally or unintentionally, this is how most such systems work... even ostensibly noncommercial ones... at least to some extent. Business systems are a chain of events. Every event has x% chance of happening and leading to the next one. If the next event makes money, it's optimized up. If it costs money, it's optimised down. Efforts to pay unclaimed rebates are never…

> Thus is life. No, such is full-blown neoliberal capitalism, where the only thing that is considered worth optimizing for is profit. Once you accept that there are other variables that deserve consideration and cannot just be abstracted by price and profit alone (most prominently customer and workforce satisfaction), other optimizations will come into play, which will reduce the amount of crap people have to deal wi…

I really wish the term capitalism hadn't been invented. Maybe it was useful in the 1840s, but in my lifetime it always seems to yield a thin hand wavy way of looking at things... whether your pro or con. The mental equivalent of shouting to win an argument.

Whatever your definition of capitalism, I'm sure you can find examples outside of it. There are an infinite number of variables besides profit. Profit isn't the only possible motive for such systems, and it only takes one.

A system of people is a system of people, whether it is a church, company, municipality, whatever.