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“Computer science is not about computers”

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Re: “Computer science is not about computers”

#41

Post by adrusi »

neonological wrote: post #18
adrusi wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true that for some time now "science" has been used almost exclusively for disciplines that make use of experimental methodologies, but in earlier usage it just meant roughly "the process of creating knowledge." The German "Wissenschaft" (which is normally how "science" is translated) is closer to the older meaning (though I'm not fluent in German, so I'm just going off what I've been told).

But the inconsistency still exists regardless of the historical etymology. Math is not a science. A mathematician is Not a scientist. Why is computing a science?

Well I'm not sure when the common usage of "science" changed, but it's possible that when "computer science" was coined in the 1950s [1], the older usage was still at least widely understood. Perhaps given the present day importance of the discipline that's stuck with an outdated name, we can return the the older usage which is IMO better.

[1] https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=computer+scien...

Re: “Computer science is not about computers”

#42

Post by TacticalCoder »

mxscho wrote: post #29

In Europe, "Computer Science" is translated with a word that is a mix of "information" and "mathematics". University course names are: > [...] informatique (French), Informatik (German), informatica (Italian, Dutch), informática (Spanish, Portuguese), informatika (Slavic languages and Hungarian) or pliroforiki (πληροφορική, which means informatics) in Greek. Similar words have also been adopted in the UK (as in the S…

That is true but in french at least "informatique" means both "computer science" (for example you can study "informatique" at university) and "anything related to computers". "What's your line of work?": a DBA, sysadmin, software developer, computer scientist, etc. may all answer simply "informatique". A series of books for beginners about Excel, Word, Internet, etc. may be called "Collection informatique".

Or if, say, you have issues delivering something on time to a client (no matter the domain), you can always invoke a "bug informatique".

So "informatique" means and is used, at least in french, much, much, much more than just "computer science".

In a way it's even worse than in english: at least "science" is added to "computer" in english and it's kinda self-explanatory. In french everything is in the same basket: from someone doing its Ph.D. to someone having a lesson to learn how to use the mouse... It's all "informatique".

Re: “Computer science is not about computers”

#44

Post by the__alchemist »

As someone who hasn't taken CS classes, I was surprised to learn that what I'd assumed was CS is classified as Electrical Engineering (Designing processors, ICs etc), and Physics (concepts like reversible computing, quantum computing, the works of Turing, Feynman, and Shannon.) I still don't have a grasp on what characterizes CS.

Re: “Computer science is not about computers”

#45

Post by RcouF1uZ4gsC »

> computer science is not about computers, any more than astronomy is about telescopes, or biology about microscopes

That is actually underselling telescopes and microscopes. It was telescopes that really gave us modern astronomy. Before we had the ability to really observe stars and planets, we were stuck with a very simplistic, geocentric view of the universe. The telescope was what really opened up venues for us to really understand astronomy.

Similarly, before the invention of the microscope, we had a very limited understanding of biology. There was no germ theory of disease, instead just theories about 4 humors. It was the microscope that really opened up venues for us to really understand biology. In fact, we even have a branch of the science that is basically dedicated to the biology of stuff you see under a microscope - microbiology.

With astronomy and biology, the science, such as it was, preceded the invention of the tools that were really needed to study it. With computer science, people were not capable of doing calculations fast enough to really appreciate complexity theory and asymptotes. At low N, N^2 and 2^N can look similar (4^2 == 2^4). The computer both became the application for computer science, as well as revealed the need for this area of study.

One can almost imagine an analogy, where the stars are invisible to the naked eye. Someone invents a telescope, and all of a sudden discovers the full wonders of stars. There is a pretty good chance that astronomy in that world might be called something like "telescope science" since the telescope is so intrinsically linked both to the birth of the area of study as well as its application.

Re: “Computer science is not about computers”

#46

Post by ttiurani »

mxscho wrote: post #29

In Europe, "Computer Science" is translated with a word that is a mix of "information" and "mathematics". University course names are: > [...] informatique (French), Informatik (German), informatica (Italian, Dutch), informática (Spanish, Portuguese), informatika (Slavic languages and Hungarian) or pliroforiki (πληροφορική, which means informatics) in Greek. Similar words have also been adopted in the UK (as in the S…

In Finnish it's "tietojenkäsittelytiede" which consists of:

* "tieto": knowledge but also sometimes information or even data. Computer is "tietokone", knowledge machine (IMO "tieto" one of the worst words in Finnish due to the too broad scope which is why we also say "informaatio" and "data" these days)

* "käsittely": processing or handling

* "tiede": science

Re: “Computer science is not about computers”

#47

Post by neonological »

User23 wrote: post #22
neonological wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the inconsistency still exists regardless of the historical etymology. Math is not a science. A mathematician is Not a scientist. Why is computing a science?

Logic, Ethics, and Aesthetics are the three normative sciences. Mathematics falls comfortably within the domain of logic, and thus mathematics is a scientific enterprise. Computing science is the subset of the subset that deals with getting actual computable results.

Did you just group Logic and aesthetics together into one thing?

Beauty and ethics are subjective. Logic is not.

Either way following this definition of "normative science" neither logic nor computer science nor math goes under it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normative_science

The reason is because this definition mentions the notion of preferred outcome. Logic and Math and computer science do not deal with "preferred outcomes" these fields are all just axioms and the consequences resulting from said axioms preferred or not.

Pedantry aside, nobody considers a "mathematician" to be a "scientist" when using the terms as they are commonly used in English. This is a total inconsistency.

Re: “Computer science is not about computers”

#48

Post by huachimingo »

mxscho wrote: post #29

In Europe, "Computer Science" is translated with a word that is a mix of "information" and "mathematics". University course names are: > [...] informatique (French), Informatik (German), informatica (Italian, Dutch), informática (Spanish, Portuguese), informatika (Slavic languages and Hungarian) or pliroforiki (πληροφορική, which means informatics) in Greek. Similar words have also been adopted in the UK (as in the S…

Wait a moment, the casual etimology of that word suggests (at least in spanish) a profession or a science, not "the sum of math and information" per se.

That same suffix, -atica, is also applied in "the mathematic" as the person (-atic) and "The Mathematics" as the science (el Matemático, las Matemáticas).

So lets say that you are a guy from two centuries ago. Someone tells you "this guy has studied informatics, he is the Informatic of the town". That would sound as if he "is versed in the study of information" rather than Computing.

Also, in Spain, instead of "the Computer" (the thing that computes, calculates), they call it "the Order-ator" (Ordenador, the thing that brings order).

Re: “Computer science is not about computers”

#49

Post by huachimingo »

TacticalCoder wrote: post #42
mxscho wrote: post #29

In Europe, "Computer Science" is translated with a word that is a mix of "information" and "mathematics". University course names are: > [...] informatique (French), Informatik (German), informatica (Italian, Dutch), informática (Spanish, Portuguese), informatika (Slavic languages and Hungarian) or pliroforiki (πληροφορική, which means informatics) in Greek. Similar words have also been adopted in the UK (as in the S…

That is true but in french at least "informatique" means both "computer science" (for example you can study "informatique" at university) and "anything related to computers". "What's your line of work?": a DBA, sysadmin, software developer, computer scientist, etc. may all answer simply "informatique". A series of books for beginners about Excel, Word, Internet, etc. may be called "Collection informatique". Or if, sa…

Same applies in spanish (at least were I live)

Re: “Computer science is not about computers”

#50

Post by benrbray »

divbzero wrote: post #39
benrbray wrote: post #11

For my entire time as an undergraduate, the large top-ten research university I attended offered no courses in programming language theory, nor were these topics woven into the computing curriculum at large. (actually, there may have been a handful of graduate courses, but undergrads were strictly prohibited from joining -- there was a mandatory theory of computation class required for all CS majors, but the topics v…

What are the best ways to fill in those gaps? I bet many of us never enjoyed those classes in school, or even had a traditional computing education.

For me learning Haskell has been a great way to expose myself to things that were previously "unknown unknowns". I do a mix of coding, for intuition, and reading papers, for theoretical context. The papers written by SPJ et al in the 1990-2000s give a remarkably clear history of how certain functional programming concepts jumped the gap from CS theory to practical implementation in Haskell.

Just as assembly gives as close to a "bare metal" view of hardware as many of us will ever come, languages like Haskell and Lisp give a "bare metal" view of CS theory.

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