Earlier quoted context omitted.
The solution is to use the hash power between points of consensus. Aka everyone thinks node A is state last year and here are the next N transactions resulting in the current state X. Sybil attack says no it’s actually B and here are the next N transactions resulting in state Y. You can compare the effort it takes for history A vs History B. Now, unlike traditional 51% attacks you don’t just need hashing power that i…
Checkpoints are definitely a thing that could be implemented, but you then need to either trust that the software developers have put a valid (or honest) checkpoint into the software... otherwise you are back to trying to determine consensus among hostile actors. A simple >95% consensus on a checkpoint is not enough when it effectively costs fractions of a cent to create thousands or millions of nodes that could all…
The Limits to Blockchain Scalability
451–460 of 465 posts
Re: The Limits to Blockchain Scalability
#452Earlier quoted context omitted.
If the network is totally gone, it's indeed more tricky. But if it still exists, and if there's no indication that the main network and chain was ever disrupted between then and now, you can be pretty confident the data is accurate if you join the network. If no one uses it anymore or if it's so little-used that it's schismed into tons of other chains over the years, I think you can still probably obtain the original…
> you can be pretty confident the data is accurate if you join the network. And how do you know the network you're joining is actually the original ethereum network and a completely different blockchain? Like every peer to peer network in existence, an Ethereum node needs to connect to a reliable first node (a “tracker” in the bittorrent protocol, idk what's the name in the ethereum world). If they are down, you're o…
The "if you join the network" is contingent on the network still being active and widely used; presumably with the Ethereum Foundation or some successor also still being active. I may not've made that fully clear in the first paragraph.
If that were the case, you could ask the same question right now. And the answer is that they publish an official client you can download and should be able to trust. This would be the case in 2040 if the network is still active and the foundation still exists.
If the foundation is gone and the network is mostly dead, then it'd indeed be much harder or perhaps impossible. The second part of my answer covers that scenario:
>If no one uses it anymore or if it's so little-used that it's schismed into tons of other chains over the years, I think you can still probably obtain the original data you're looking for, but it'll take more effort to verify its authenticity.
>Especially if the data you're looking for occurred at a time when the network was healthy and intact (like 2020), all you need to do in 2040 is find a block number and corresponding root hash that existed in 2020. I think these'll likely be possible to find even if the network's dead, and you can compare them against several different sources to increase confidence that they're not fake. Then as you scour the internet and download different published blockchain copies, you can truncate it back to that block number and compare the hash.
>It's possible your search will be futile and you'll be unable to find a trustworthy record of block numbers and root hashes or that you'll be unable to find a verified 2020 blockchain, but I think your odds will be pretty good if the internet hasn't collapsed. Either way, as Vitalik pointed out, the odds are way higher you'll be able to find that compared to some data you entered into some SaaS in 2020.
Re: The Limits to Blockchain Scalability
#453Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ethereum proof of stake has 4 production implementations today that run the chain. They are from independent teams that are not part of the Ethereum Foundation
They are as independent as Mozilla is from Google. So they're not the same entity; but in practice they take orders from Eth foundation because they're funded by the Eth foundation.
Jumping to "they are doing X because of Y" seems a bit intense, and would like to see how you're getting there.
What would it take for you to see it differently? That one of the clients diverge from the specifications to do their own thing? That's not in anyone's best interest either, so unlikely to happen.
Re: The Limits to Blockchain Scalability
#454Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you have a final state double-spend attacks are actually impossible. They are based on the fact that someone can insert a transaction then "overwrite" it by providing a longer chain where the transaction didn't happen or went somewhere else. This is only ever possible if there is no final state. Also not sure why you would need centralization for what. Simplified a final state is when a majority declares it as fin…
Why do you need a blockchain at all then? This is what I really don't get. If you have your "majority" available at all times they just agree on account balances and call it a day. Just like WebMoney did circa 1998.
Also majority in a decentral system is not that simple. It can be done with FBA (Federated Byzantine Agreement). If that's the case, then yes, account balances are simply agreed on and they call it a day (or technically its called a closed ledger). Then they add the next. Now ledger are blocks of data and the best way to order them is to chain them with hashes depending on the previous ledger (block). And we are back to "blockchain". Its still misleading the "magic" part isn't the chain of blocks. Its the fact that the double spending problem can be solves without an arbiter of truth.
>Just like WebMoney did circa 1998.
I dont know about the technical way this was implemented back then but most likely the system was operated by a single entity. There is some kind of master balance database and the all other sync with that. A double spending can be prevented by rules applies to the master DB. AKA a write-sync is denied if it violates the balance rules. This is easy to do centralizes and obviously who ever controls it can circumvent the rules if he wants to.
Re: The Limits to Blockchain Scalability
#455Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you have a final state double-spend attacks are actually impossible. They are based on the fact that someone can insert a transaction then "overwrite" it by providing a longer chain where the transaction didn't happen or went somewhere else. This is only ever possible if there is no final state. Also not sure why you would need centralization for what. Simplified a final state is when a majority declares it as fin…
> Simplified a final state is when a majority declares it as final not a central entity does that. A majority of what? How do you know if you really have a majority or someone is faking a lot of identities and/or hiding a lot of real ones from you? And if you later find out you had the wrong "majority" what do you do, if the state is final from your perspective?
>How do you know if you really have a majority or someone is faking a lot of identities and/or hiding a lot of real ones from you?
You decide in advance from which nodes you want to have a majority agreement. It doesn't matter how many are out there only the ones you listen to matter (for you). However if you choose 1000 nodes and 900 of them are offline then your node will halt because it can not reach a majority. In other words you are forced to listen to reliable nodes if you want to have a reliable node. Also if you listen to 10 but they are all owned by a single person. He can lie to your node. In other words you are forced to listen to nodes operated by different entities. In reality there are for example companies, universities, maybe states non-profit organizations etc. Anyone who wants to use it has aligned interest to not collude with others especially competing entities like 2 different banks or payment provider.
This leads to a core of nodes who mostly all listen to each other. If you want to know the final state without even running a node this would be it. You ask as man nodes as possible form that core of nodes. What the core or nodes made final is final.
Spinning up thousands of nodes dont matter. No one will listen to them. They can all listen to each-other then you essentially created a fork. No one cares, you can no affect what is final and you cant fool anyone unless the voluntary listen to your nodes.
>.... hiding a lot of real ones from you?
The node network is p2p with signed messages there is no hiding. There is relaying ofc so each messages can go the fastest way possible but due to privet/public key encryption there is no tampering possible. If a node would block traffic it just goes another way. If a node "disappears" its considered offline so it is ignored but only if the rest still reaches majority. If too many go offline the network halts until majority can be reached again.
>And if you later find out you had the wrong "majority" what do you do, if the state is final from your perspective?
There can not be a "wrong majority" unless you listen to the wrong network of nodes. If you intentionally dont listen to the current core of the network you basically choose to listen to another network aka a fork.
Its like if you listen to BCH instead of BTC you are free to do so.
https://xrpl.org/consensus-principles-and-rules.html#how-con...
Re: The Limits to Blockchain Scalability
#456This has some really questionable assumptions. Like the part about permanence. "An important property of a blockchain that users really value is permanence. A digital asset stored on a server will stop existing in 10 years when the company goes bankrupt or loses interest in maintaining that ecosystem. An NFT on Ethereum, on the other hand, is forever." This is wrong 2 times. First, there is no general requirement of…
Re: The Limits to Blockchain Scalability
#457Earlier quoted context omitted.
Ethereum proof of stake has 4 production implementations today that run the chain. They are from independent teams that are not part of the Ethereum Foundation
They are as independent as Mozilla is from Google. So they're not the same entity; but in practice they take orders from Eth foundation because they're funded by the Eth foundation.
Re: The Limits to Blockchain Scalability
#458This is a really good read. More of this and less of Elon's chatter needed!
I was trying to summarize, for an employee who got caught in “Elon Musk shouldn’t have manipulated the BTC” (!) (obviously the employee lost 25% of his savings), I was trying to summarize the list of dangers of having savings in BTC. - Laws of any big country could change and trigger the sale for a lot of sellers of a country, - Especially given BTC is used by Iran to bypass petrol restrictions, used by ransomware an…
>[big purchases] of any big country could change and trigger the [purchase] for a lot of [buyers] of a country.
>Especially given BTC is used by Iran to bypass petrol restrictions, used by ransomware and all sort of dealers, as well as Chinese who want to flee.
[Didn't actually have to change this one, seems like buying pressure to me]
>Currencies are in theory regalian = only emitted by the central bank; [New world currency outside of central banks is the whole vision for crypto, so i don't see how this conflicts.]
>Once any country gets upset with this, they could blame terrorism on BTC and ask owners to prove their origin of wealth, which would be a major hurdle if the law was strict.[ Don't actually understand this one, how could you make me prove ownership of coins in a cold-wallet?]
Re: The Limits to Blockchain Scalability
#459This is a really good read. More of this and less of Elon's chatter needed!