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ProtonMail includes Google Recaptcha for login

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Re: ProtonMail includes Google Recaptcha for login

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

hcaptcha is not much better than recaptcha, in that its only ‘improvement’ is shifting data extraction from google to cloudflare. also, captcha in general shifts burden onto and penalizes legitimate users, especially privacy-conscious ones, in addition to malicious ones. that is, false positive rates are too high to achieve acceptable false negative rates. it would be better not to use a centralized captcha service,…

hcaptcha is so much harder than recaptcha. You actually have to spend a couple seconds per photo sometimes. Not ideal for users.

Really not sure about it, Google lets you do it quickly but if you do it, they'll just throw more problems at you it seems.

Re: ProtonMail includes Google Recaptcha for login

#152
post #82

Another user-hostile. Folks laugh when I say I run my own email (FreeBSD/Postfix) and "why build your own mail client"? Because, inevitably, all these for profit service providers turn against me.

i would not laugh. think it’s impressive and must eat a lot of time

Not really. Once Postfix, Dovecot, DNS stuff, DKIM, it "just works". I did lose some time, three years ago fiddling with spamassaaain vs rspamd but mail, after the not-really-that-hard-at-all setup. I mean, folk handle way more complex stuff (k8s) but balk at a bit of time on this old, boring, stable set-it-and-forget-it self-hosted wonder.

Re: ProtonMail includes Google Recaptcha for login

#153
post #47

When I started my company we chose to use Protonmail. My advice to anyone who wants secure email: don't use protonmail. The email search is completely useless. I don't understand how it can possibly be so difficult to do a substring search on a corpus and rank them in some kind of sane way. Searching for old emails based on content is an exercise in futility. After a few years of using an email service, search become…

My own advice re secure email is that there isn't such a beast – you just can't apply what is expected from modern secure messaging, like having no insecure fallbacks, forward secrecy, encrypted metadata, etc.

Re: ProtonMail includes Google Recaptcha for login

#154
post #47

When I started my company we chose to use Protonmail. My advice to anyone who wants secure email: don't use protonmail. The email search is completely useless. I don't understand how it can possibly be so difficult to do a substring search on a corpus and rank them in some kind of sane way. Searching for old emails based on content is an exercise in futility. After a few years of using an email service, search become…

https://theconsciousresistance.com/protonmail-is-insecure/

https://privacy-watchdog.io/protonmails-creation-with-cia-ns...

https://eprint.iacr.org/2018/1121.pdf

Re: ProtonMail includes Google Recaptcha for login

#155
post #107
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It used to be the case that both ProtonMail and FastMail were frequently recommended on HN. So, how is FastMail doing in comparison?

Check out TricepMail.com. I'm curious to see what HN thinks of it.

It looks interesting, it goes the functionality checkboxes, but given the thread here the target audience is likey interested in privacy and security. Tricepmail seems to have little to no information about security, and the privacy policy is basically GDPR compliance (specifically: we'll tell you what we collect personal info for) with the option to sell the data to third parties. Additionally, the apps appear to be in beta-stage still. They're functional, but still pretty rough in appearance. You're going to be hard pressed to convince anyone here to switch to a service that retains the right to sell your data, doesn't reveal the country of administration, and is relatively new.

Re: ProtonMail includes Google Recaptcha for login

#156
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any suggestions for alternatives?

write your own? many personal tech blogs do this for comment forms and the like. any kind of ambiguity that’s natural for a human to parse accurately but not obvious for a machine is fair game. most bots won’t one-off a solution for smaller sites, so it doesn’t need to be too fancy. for larger ones where one-off customizations might be more likely, lots of engineering resources go toward security and fraud prevention…

> write your own? many personal tech blogs do this for comment forms and the like.

Until they get broken by botnets and we are back to where we started by using Google ReCaptcha.

Re: ProtonMail includes Google Recaptcha for login

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry if our answer wasn't clear. You can de-activate, but it must be manually requested through support.

You’re replies are very frustrating. It’s like you’re completely missing the point of the replies and focusing on very tiny, irrelevant details. Nobody is claiming that you can’t remove deactivated accounts. Only that you charge for them until you go through the rather annoying process of contacting customer support. And then you make some bad excuse that it’s in the name of security because somebody could potentiall…

I think it is unreasonable to think that protonmail should not charge you for deactivated accounts that still have data in them. If they still have data, then you should keep paying.

Re: ProtonMail includes Google Recaptcha for login

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re replies are very frustrating. It’s like you’re completely missing the point of the replies and focusing on very tiny, irrelevant details. Nobody is claiming that you can’t remove deactivated accounts. Only that you charge for them until you go through the rather annoying process of contacting customer support. And then you make some bad excuse that it’s in the name of security because somebody could potentiall…

> Obviously there could be a middle ground of allowing someone to deactivate 5 accounts per month or something. A improvement like this is indeed in our feature backlog, and something we hope to implement in the future.

Wow this response chain is so layed on thick with half answers and marketing speak. I guess you can now "hope" that I won't cancel my protonmail subscription.

Re: ProtonMail includes Google Recaptcha for login

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fastmail rightly points out that the Australian law has no meaningful impact on them. They do not offer an end-to-end encrypted service, and hence, don't need to backdoor it. The vast majority of mail services will hand your data to the government on court order. Though if your mail is hosted in a different country than you live in, it's arguably more frustrating for them to do so, since they must use international a…

>it's arguably more frustrating for them to do so, since they must use international agreements to get it. // Caution, abject speculation: I thought spooks like this kind of thing because they can do illegal things in other jurisdictions that they're restrained from doing in their own - or get foreign agents to spy on you to avoid getting a warrant. Like they can route traffic to another country, then have affects th…

But in any case, they are not buddies, not even colleagues in the same office floor. They at least need to find contacts in the remote country and persuade them to spend time for their task. Sometimes that’s all it takes to prevent them from passively collecting signals, unless you are an important target.

Re: ProtonMail includes Google Recaptcha for login

#160
As a fan of ProtonMail, will just add a few points:

Every popular online service today is being continuously attacked. Bad actors get a lot of economic value from credential stuffing, account takeovers, and fake registrations, especially on email services.

This is why CAPTCHAs exist. They are one of the better tools in the defender's arsenal to increase the cost of attacks.

Building and maintaining a good CAPTCHA service is both hard and requires a high level of continuous development, since every day people are waking up and trying to figure out how to break it.

This means almost every company that tried building their own in the past has switched to either hCaptcha or Google, since it is not practical for even large companies to maintain their own solution these days.

Why was ProtonMail originally using Google? Probably because for many years it was the only plausible option until hCaptcha came around, and they needed to protect their users.

We're working with them now to switch over to the enterprise version of hCaptcha, which:

1) includes privacy-preserving features that let them decide exactly what user data hCaptcha sees and when, and 2) guarantees what happens to any data received via a data processing agreement, and 3) isn't run by an ad network.

hCaptcha doesn't care who you are and ensures all data is ephemeral, since unlike Google we're not trying to sell ads targeting you.

(disclosure: work there)

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