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Remains of 215 children found at former residential school in British Columbia

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Re: Remains of 215 children found at former residential school in British Columbia

#101

Post by tremon »

Retric wrote: post #61
at_a_remove wrote: post #21

This is one incident among many, but it has less to do with indigenous children as it does with any system wherein the accounting of "disconnected" children is left to that system. Tuam, County Galway ... eight hundred infants with missing graves. St Mary's Cemetery in Lanark, four hundred left in a single mass grave. In Germany, nuns pimping out orphans. The Sisters of Mercy scandal. I could go on. Bluntly put, when…

Child abuse and neglect by parents is also something that exists. It’s easy to see problems, but context and improvements are much more difficult. The US removed sanitariums due to serious issues, but the situation didn’t improve instead dumping the mentality ill into the prison and homeless populations. Currently the US use foster homes rather than orphanages, but is it a better system, just different, or worse simp…

Ultimately, group homes are operating a business. The people running such homes are working there, not necessarily living there. That means the adults don't need to form an emotional bond with the children, while the children do need to form emotional bonds with the adults for their development. That mismatch doesn't exist in foster homes, foster parents are much more likely to invest in foster children (both emotionally and financially) than group home caregivers are.

To take a very blunt IT analogy, it's a cattle vs pets distinction.

Re: Remains of 215 children found at former residential school in British Columbia

#102

Post by dragonwriter »

FooBarBizBazz wrote: post #98
dragonwriter wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It highlights two very different meanings of "genocide". It's the distinction between "killing people" and "killing a people". “Killing a people” is genocide. “Killing people” is murder, mass murder if it is lots of people. The latter is sometimes part of the mechanism by which the former is achieved, but there aren’t “two different meanings of ‘genocide’” involved.

> “Killing a people” is genocide. But people do change their identities all the time. And sometimes the destruction of one identity leads to the creation of a new one. This has been a key part of all nation-building exercises. It is a purpose of education and mass-media. Is the unification of tribes, the destruction of difference, necessarily "genocide"? Also, if you can speak of the "death of a people", surely you c…

> But people do change their identities all the time.

People die all the time, and its not murder. A deliberate campaign to kill a people is genocide. A people dieing by processes that don’t involve a deliberate campaign is not genocide.

Re: Remains of 215 children found at former residential school in British Columbia

#103

Post by tremon »

koheripbal wrote: post #63
tw04 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The average family doesn't have a child buried in their yard. So yes I think we can say with confidence these institutions were and are quantifiably worse.

The average institute also doesnt have children buried in the yard. Your conclusion isnt logical.

Actually, the logic is sound. Right now, the calculation is 215 bodies / 1 institute, so an average of 215 bodies per institute. In order to make your statement true, you would already need to find more than 100 institutes without bodies in the yard to bring the average down to 2 bodies per institute, and then find at least another 40 to bring the average below 1.5, in order to make your "the average institute doesn't have children (plural) buried in the yard" true.

Re: Remains of 215 children found at former residential school in British Columbia

#104

Post by mykowebhn »

bondant wrote: post #7
kstenerud wrote: post #6

This is not an isolated incident. These schools operated all across Canada, were created specifically to "de-savage the indians", had zero accountability, and almost destroyed an entire people. These kids were taken from their parents, imprisoned in these places, and endured endless abuse for their formative years. And this went on until 1994 in some places! This is Canada's great shame, and we've barely scratched th…

Maybe this one https://www.arte.tv/en/videos/093799-000-A/killing-the-india... ?

There is also this excellent and difficult-to-watch movie about a Canadian First Nations boy who is forcibly separated from his family and raised in one of the Catholic orphanages. He has an extraordinary talent for playing hockey--this is a Canadian film after all--but that talent is squandered from all the abuse he is subjected to.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Horse_(film)

Re: Remains of 215 children found at former residential school in British Columbia

#105

Post by fit2rule »

I am familiar with, as one could be, of what might be called the "White Stolen Generation", an identity I resist in my personal circles, because I was placed there, whereas the original owners children truly were stolen - and I therefore have more respect for their anguish than any other mob in Australia.

The trade of children in the Empire is a story that is not yet fully told.

I learned, very early and with still distinct memories, that the Australian founders and social engineers of the 20th century had their own plans for construction of the new social order.

Children from all over the world, in the Commonwealth and under the guise of our sovereign, were taken under distinctly sinister pretext and placed into white homes, all over Australia. White children, mostly, from seriously impoverished regions of the empire. Promised a vacation, ended there for life.

It was not so innocent. In many cases, the stories are too hard to tell.

Another thing the catholic priests taught me, is that a society is as weak as its secrets. That one has actually served me well, in life, in general.

Re: Remains of 215 children found at former residential school in British Columbia

#106

Post by Retric »

tremon wrote: post #101
Retric wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Child abuse and neglect by parents is also something that exists. It’s easy to see problems, but context and improvements are much more difficult. The US removed sanitariums due to serious issues, but the situation didn’t improve instead dumping the mentality ill into the prison and homeless populations. Currently the US use foster homes rather than orphanages, but is it a better system, just different, or worse simp…

Ultimately, group homes are operating a business. The people running such homes are working there , not necessarily living there. That means the adults don't need to form an emotional bond with the children, while the children do need to form emotional bonds with the adults for their development. That mismatch doesn't exist in foster homes, foster parents are much more likely to invest in foster children (both emotio…

That’s one way of separating things, however the literature is surprisingly mixed on the topic.

EX: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/15248380177264...

Re: Remains of 215 children found at former residential school in British Columbia

#107

Post by maximilianburke »

kyralis wrote: post #100
dragonwriter wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It highlights two very different meanings of "genocide". It's the distinction between "killing people" and "killing a people". “Killing a people” is genocide. “Killing people” is murder, mass murder if it is lots of people. The latter is sometimes part of the mechanism by which the former is achieved, but there aren’t “two different meanings of ‘genocide’” involved.

I suspect you'll find relatively few people who will use "genocide" to refer to the eradication of a culture without concurrent mass killing of the members of that culture.

I think the most notable genocides have involved murder, but that doesn't mean they all have. Look at what is happening to the Uyghur people in China; it appears to be more of an operation to destroy their culture and identity than to slaughter the people, at least at the moment.

Re: Remains of 215 children found at former residential school in British Columbia

#108

Post by secondcoming »

dade_ wrote: post #53
at_a_remove wrote: post #21

This is one incident among many, but it has less to do with indigenous children as it does with any system wherein the accounting of "disconnected" children is left to that system. Tuam, County Galway ... eight hundred infants with missing graves. St Mary's Cemetery in Lanark, four hundred left in a single mass grave. In Germany, nuns pimping out orphans. The Sisters of Mercy scandal. I could go on. Bluntly put, when…

These children weren’t abandoned, they were forcefully taken from their families by the government. They were sent vast distances to these boarding schools to “kill the Indian in the child”, where they were often mistreated, sexually abused, and went missing ( murder/neglect/ abuse). So it is all the more egregious in this case. The government turned a blind eye to the Churches, and the Churches were doing God’s work…

In at least Ireland, not all of the children were abandoned either. Quite a few were guilty of being born out of wedlock.

Luckily Ireland has cast aside the influence of the Catholic church these days.

Re: Remains of 215 children found at former residential school in British Columbia

#109

Post by FooBarBizBazz »

kyralis wrote: post #100
dragonwriter wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It highlights two very different meanings of "genocide". It's the distinction between "killing people" and "killing a people". “Killing a people” is genocide. “Killing people” is murder, mass murder if it is lots of people. The latter is sometimes part of the mechanism by which the former is achieved, but there aren’t “two different meanings of ‘genocide’” involved.

I suspect you'll find relatively few people who will use "genocide" to refer to the eradication of a culture without concurrent mass killing of the members of that culture.

So simultaneity is what characterizes it?

Re: Remains of 215 children found at former residential school in British Columbia

#110

Post by salamandersauce »

joshlemer wrote: post #95
lriel wrote: post #60

The residential school are a very sad state of affairs with regards to the thinning down of the aboriginal stance and culture in Canada before, during and after the Dominion. My country has had a very bad holier than thou attitude with regards to history and culture. In typical aboriginal kickassness, the Ktunaxa took one of those residential schools and turned it into a luxury golfing resort for the rich gentile fol…

> In all of english Canada, he is presented as a man consumed with mental illness fighting along side the natives, whereas in Quebec, which is francophone and healthily feuding with the anglos on all sides, Mr Riel is presented as a franco hero without any mentions of mr Riel's illness and our country's treatment of the man and his condition. I don’t get why Quebecers always think they are the only ones who remember…

Not just Manitoba either. Saskatchewan at least too. USask's student union building is named after him for example.
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