Google says Rowhammer attacks are gaining range as RAM is getting denser • Hacker News Board

Re: Google says Rowhammer attacks are gaining range as RAM is getting denser

#21

Post by manquer » Fri, May 28, 2021, 7:06 PM UTC

campuscodi wrote: post #5

CobaltFire wrote: post #2

Article title is slightly misleading: by smaller they mean process size, increasing the range of the rowhammer attacks logically due to decreased distance between memory cells even though the physics limited distance is the same.

I'm the author of the article. With all due respect, but I will have to push back on your categorization as 'slightly misleading' here. Your explanation effectively explains the headline and is also what Google researchers said. How is the headline misleading?

I don't think it is misleading entirely, however my first reaction was you meant smaller in storage capacity or physical size of stick this interpretation is not uncommon and can cause some confusion

Re: Google says Rowhammer attacks are gaining range as RAM is getting denser

#22

Post by creato » Fri, May 28, 2021, 7:06 PM UTC

notriddle wrote: post #9

In other words, blame Intel for trying to pass off ECC as a "Enterprise Feature" instead of the basic necessity that it is.

DRAM manufacturers continue (knowingly at this point) to manufacture faulty products, and we should blame Intel?

Re: Google says Rowhammer attacks are gaining range as RAM is getting denser

#23

Post by manquer » Fri, May 28, 2021, 7:10 PM UTC

cortesoft wrote: post #19

ma2rten wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I initially read the headline I thought for a second that it meant storage capacity is getting smaller. But then I realized that that doesn't make sense and it's referring to process size.

Not sure how you could have read it that way... storage capacity is clearly not getting smaller.

I had similar thoughts as the parent, then your point came to my mind, next thing I thought was perhaps not storage capacity but maybe smaller form factor of the stick itself.

Clearly I was wrong, but confusion can happen with just saying "smaller", many meanings are there for that word.

Re: Google says Rowhammer attacks are gaining range as RAM is getting denser

#24

Post by r00fus » Fri, May 28, 2021, 7:13 PM UTC

hypertele-Xii wrote: post #13

notriddle wrote: post #9

In other words, blame Intel for trying to pass off ECC as a "Enterprise Feature" instead of the basic necessity that it is.

ECC is vulnerable to Rowhammer.

The same way that masks don't prevent COVID.

Re: Google says Rowhammer attacks are gaining range as RAM is getting denser

#25

Post by gugagore » Fri, May 28, 2021, 7:16 PM UTC

creato wrote: post #22

notriddle wrote: post #9

In other words, blame Intel for trying to pass off ECC as a "Enterprise Feature" instead of the basic necessity that it is.

DRAM manufacturers continue (knowingly at this point) to manufacture faulty products, and we should blame Intel?

I am not familiar with DRAM spec sheets, but are manufacturers specifying that there will be zero errors?

Without a specification that says so, I don't think it's necessarily the fault of the manufacturer if they cannot build perfect RAM!

Suppose someone builds a car with one these computers in a safety-critical role, and then someone gets injured because of an error that "originated" with the RAM.

Re: Google says Rowhammer attacks are gaining range as RAM is getting denser

#26

Post by singlow » Fri, May 28, 2021, 7:19 PM UTC

campuscodi wrote: post #5

CobaltFire wrote: post #2

Article title is slightly misleading: by smaller they mean process size, increasing the range of the rowhammer attacks logically due to decreased distance between memory cells even though the physics limited distance is the same.

I'm the author of the article. With all due respect, but I will have to push back on your categorization as 'slightly misleading' here. Your explanation effectively explains the headline and is also what Google researchers said. How is the headline misleading?

Definitely not misleading. Possibly easy to misunderstand? It did take me a second to realize what was meant.

Re: Google says Rowhammer attacks are gaining range as RAM is getting denser

#27

Post by josh2600 » Fri, May 28, 2021, 7:19 PM UTC

hypertele-Xii wrote: post #13

notriddle wrote: post #9

In other words, blame Intel for trying to pass off ECC as a "Enterprise Feature" instead of the basic necessity that it is.

ECC is vulnerable to Rowhammer.

I mean the punchline is: if you heat something up enough then you can get electrons to wiggle. At some level of cell wall thickness, the cost/time/annoyance of triggering a rowhammer exceeds the value of the attack, and other methods become cheaper or more practical.

Ultimately, nothing that an attacker has physical access to can be completely secured, we can only raise the cost in terms of time and money to attempt to breach the system. Even a system with tamper-destructive enclosures have seen attacks (it's just more expensive and difficult than other attacks).

In short, the more annoying/expensive you can make it to attack your system, the smaller the set of attackers becomes.

Re: Google says Rowhammer attacks are gaining range as RAM is getting denser

#28

Post by notriddle » Fri, May 28, 2021, 7:31 PM UTC

creato wrote: post #22

notriddle wrote: post #9

In other words, blame Intel for trying to pass off ECC as a "Enterprise Feature" instead of the basic necessity that it is.

DRAM manufacturers continue (knowingly at this point) to manufacture faulty products, and we should blame Intel?

Yes.

Intel is an industry leader. EFI, Thunderbolt, and the "ultrabook" product category are all their ideas. By adding a feature to their CPU products, they induce demand for anything that complements it.

By putting ECC support into their highest-end mobile CPUs only, they made them into high-end luxuries instead of industry standard. https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/search/featurefi...

Re: Google says Rowhammer attacks are gaining range as RAM is getting denser

#29

Post by karmicthreat » Fri, May 28, 2021, 7:45 PM UTC

atatatat wrote: post #20

karmicthreat wrote: post #3

Is there any evidence of Rawhammer being used in a successful attack in the wild?

Is there any evidence it's not just a matter of time before there is?

Rowhammer has been known of for over 5 years.

Re: Google says Rowhammer attacks are gaining range as RAM is getting denser

#30

Post by hughw » Fri, May 28, 2021, 8:02 PM UTC

campuscodi wrote: post #5

CobaltFire wrote: post #2

Article title is slightly misleading: by smaller they mean process size, increasing the range of the rowhammer attacks logically due to decreased distance between memory cells even though the physics limited distance is the same.

I'm the author of the article. With all due respect, but I will have to push back on your categorization as 'slightly misleading' here. Your explanation effectively explains the headline and is also what Google researchers said. How is the headline misleading?

Not intentionally misleading, of course. But I too first misinterpreted "RAM is getting smaller" as RAM that has smaller storage, which is counter to experience. But that's the size dimension I confront in everyday life, not the physical dimensions of the chip. I knew I must not be getting it, but I didn't think of the physical size until I read the article.