Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

reuters.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

321–330 of 379 posts

Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#321

Post by henrikschroder »

Closi wrote: post #283
henrikschroder wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don’t think that’s true - but it certainly needs more than a couple of poor resolution cameras How would your imagined autopilot system handle traffic flaggers, construction workers with signs, or various people directing traffic with handsignals? How will your system see the difference between a police officer making hand signs that you have to obey, and some random person making hand signals? How will it solve…

The answer is quite simple in all these cases - it doesn't. A self driving car shouldn't be operating on some mysterious black-box AI interpretation of the intention of (often ambiguous) hand signals from drivers and police officers. Any situation with hand-waving should be passed back to a human driver until the hand-waving can be eliminated with future laws and road rules. We aren't going to have full level-5 auton…

Right, so you're saying that actual reality is too hard for self-driving systems to deal with, so we should change reality in order to coddle the self-driving cars so that they can handle it.

...which reinforces the point me and the grandparent post was making: You can't solve self-driving without AGI.

Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#322

Post by camjohnson26 »

bob33212 wrote: post #305
camjohnson26 wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If 2024 comes and Musk says it’s coming in 2 weeks will you still believe him?

If there have been no advancements between now and 2024 and then Elon says that FSD is 2 weeks away. Is that the scenario you are asking about?

I'm saying if you still have to have your hands on the wheel and pay attention to the road at all times.

Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#323

Post by clouddrover »

gmadsen wrote: post #311
clouddrover wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Waymo coming to a controlled stop in front of a traffic cone And then driving off again, and then blocking traffic, and then evading Waymo's roadside assistance, etc. Do you see how these aren't different situations?

again, nothing high danger. That is not a neural net, it could have easily been programmed to not try and maneuver around and just stay stopped, so sounds like a behavior that needs some additional improvement. It didn't lose sight of the cones. It was an issue with generating an appropriate path around the cones. Notice how it didn't hit the cones or anything else That is fundamentally different than trusting a neur…

> again, nothing high danger.

Not having control of the car is high danger. Even when they recognized it needed rescuing they still didn't have control of it.

Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#324

Post by bumby »

henrikschroder wrote: post #196
Closi wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, IMO, it will never happen because it needs a full artificial general intelligence. I don’t think that’s true - but it certainly needs more than a couple of poor resolution cameras and some underpowered hardware powered by hype. You can see how poor the vision of these systems is by just watching a few Tesla autopilot videos and seeing cars flash into/out of recognition on the screen. The first actual self…

> I don’t think that’s true - but it certainly needs more than a couple of poor resolution cameras How would your imagined autopilot system handle traffic flaggers, construction workers with signs, or various people directing traffic with handsignals? How will your system see the difference between a police officer making hand signs that you have to obey, and some random person making hand signals? How will it solve…

You touch on something very important in terms of confidence. People in this thread say there’s an unfair higher expectation for safety with autonomous cars. I think this is primarily because we can reasonably intuit what a human is thinking and will likely do. We can’t do that with AI so it’s reasonable to expect higher levels of starter before we fully trust them in the same way we’ve evolved to trust other humans.

Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#325

Post by bumby »

tgaj wrote: post #294
henrikschroder wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don’t think that’s true - but it certainly needs more than a couple of poor resolution cameras How would your imagined autopilot system handle traffic flaggers, construction workers with signs, or various people directing traffic with handsignals? How will your system see the difference between a police officer making hand signs that you have to obey, and some random person making hand signals? How will it solve…

It's not so hard. As human driver I ignore every hand waving if it's not from the guy in yellow vest who is standing on the middle of the road. I think computers can learn that too.

This assumes the only legitimate case of a person directing traffic are people who planned to be in that position (cop, crossing guard, etc.) You need to handle the impromptu cases as well

Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#326

Post by computerex »

nickik wrote: post #239
computerex wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are in a pickle due to the chip shortage. There are no good technical reasons for removing the radar sensors. What would they say?

Nonsense. They have been talking about removing radar for a while, that was always part of the plan.

There is a difference between not relying on radar and having it there to provide redundancy and removing the thing altogether and presenting a single point of failure that can cost someone their life.

MobilEye for example can run on vision and radar independently and they have been for a while. The reason they don't remove one or the other sensors is to provide redundancy.

When your tech can kill people, it's a good idea to provide redundancy.

Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#327

Post by ghoward »

ghoward wrote: post #264
masklinn wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> More people need to see your comment because there seems to be a belief that full self driving is just around the corner. However, IMO, it will never happen because it needs a full artificial general intelligence. People who were not convinced by autopilot shoving cars under trucks are not going to get convinced by one more anecdote.

Actually, you are right. Guess my naivete showed through.

To the downvoters, I wasn't being sarcastic. GP _is_ right, and I was wrong.

Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#328

Post by goshx »

JoshGlazebrook wrote: post #253
goshx wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Autosteer will be limited to a maximum speed of 75 mph and a longer minimum following distance. Smart Summon (if equipped) and Emergency Lane Departure Avoidance may be disabled at delivery." Are these really important features that you would postpone a purchase of the car? With the exception of the "Emergency Lane Departure Avoidance", no other car in the industry has these features anyways.

Many states have highway speed limits that _begin_ at 75mph. So yes this would mean autopilot (a huge selling point of these vehicles) is useless for highway driving, which is what autopilot in its current incarnation is meant for.

You can still drive the car and this is temporary. To hold on to the purchase because of this is idiotic.

And I am going to call out on your BS. No state begins at 75. Max speed in most states is 70 and 4 or 5 have a max speed of 80, which is the max across the country. So go lie somewhere else.

https://www.iihs.org/topics/speed/speed-limit-laws

Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#329

Post by powerbroker »

Tesla has had voice commands 'working' for a few years. A simple rule-of-thumb to think the FSD (or whatever they call it in 2030) is working, is to ask yourself, how many of the last 100 voice commands has it understood. If the number is different than 100, then don't trust the FSD.

Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#330

Post by sturza »

gauravphoenix wrote: post #58

>removing radar sensors to transition to a camera-based Autopilot system A few weeks back, I had a terrible experience while using auto pilot. I was driving on a highway (in CA) with autopilot engaged. For the most part, there was a concrete median on the highway. Suddenly, a section came with no concrete median and a new left only turn lane gets added. For whatever reasons, autopilot thought it is a great idea to su…

The complexity of a control system must be equal to or greater than the complexity of the system it controls
Post reply on HN