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The media's lab leak fiasco

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Re: The media's lab leak fiasco

#271
post #263

Another political article about how it's not possible that the Chinese were studying the virus and some underpaid lab tech screwed and and exposed himself and then did what humans always do, the tech tried to cover up the mistake. Nobody has still explained how the Chinese knew they had a problem in early December when they only had a handful of cases, like less than 100 cases. This is the question that needs to be a…

COVID was detected as SARS when Wuhan doctors started harboring suspicions and requested analysis of some patient samples. So it was immediately known that a SARS outbreak or something very much like it was in progress.

Re: The media's lab leak fiasco

#272
post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you said does not make sense at all. All Chinese government branches are directly under the command of the CCP. Even China's top court rejects the idea of juridical independence [1]. To say China is equivalent to U.S is totally ignorant. 1 . https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-policy-law/chinas-t...

On paper they're directly under the command of the CCP, but Xi Jinping only has so many hours in his day like any other human and can't personally monitor everything that's happening in a billion-person country. That seems to leave plenty of room for government branches to have their own internal politics and interests in practice.

So why the hundreds of thousands of mouths of Chinese Doctors and Nurses and medical researchers are kept shut now?

Well, apparently the CCP told the truth, the whole truth to the world. Authoritarian regime doesn't work.

/s

Re: The media's lab leak fiasco

#273
post #5

Reminder that Facebook and Twitter banned users for talking about the lab-leak theory. Youtube accounts also got demontized/banned.

> Reminder that Facebook and Twitter banned users for talking about the lab-leak theory. Can we define/refine the concept of "lab-leak theory" a bit? Because some of the stuff floating around a year ago was a bit unhinged from reality: > You’ve probably heard the rumor: The new coronavirus is a bioweapon. Some malicious country—perhaps the United States, maybe China, depending on who’s talking or tweeting—purposefull…

This is classic “nurse vs. feminist nurse” cognitive distortion. Whether the virus was developed as a bio weapon, or simply as a product of well-intentioned gain-of-function research, is irrelevant to the factual basis of whether or not it escaped from the lab. We don’t need to establish how and why it was created, only that it was, in order to assess the likelihood of lab release as a root cause of the pandemic.

Re: The media's lab leak fiasco

#274

I hate how it feels like there's such a "collective narrative" for everything now days with the internet. Whenever I talk to people about recent news stories in real life it feels like everyone is just repeating talking points they read online. Its like we've been absorbed into the internet consciousness and talking to a person is like talking to "the internet brain".

> Whenever I talk to people about recent news stories in real life it feels like everyone is just repeating talking points they read online. Would you mind sharing some examples, as well as the counterpoint arguments you add to the real life conversation? I've seen claims like this before, and it almost always comes from people who get their news from places like Zerohedge or Infowars.

Yeah I’m curious too..like do people remember a time when everyone formed unique and contrasting views about national subjects they didn’t personally have in depth domain knowledge of? Whats the expectation here?

Re: The media's lab leak fiasco

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure whether it's plausible to non-experts like you or me is a valuable way to categorize it. But the reason to be cautious about it is the potential for violence. Both at an individual level against people perceived as Asian and at a global level of a hot war. A good example here is after 9/11. The US had a rash of violence against people who people thought looked Muslim, like the Sikh gas station owner Balb…

You are making very very wrong suggestion now. Because some people can link Chinese government to all Asians, so we can't criticize the Chinese government? Because Chinese government = Chinese people = Chinese Americans = Asian Americans? I think this kind of automatic linking Chinese government to Chinese / Asian Americans is itself racist. What you are suggesting is implicitly accepting this racist idea. To stand a…

We can criticize the Chinese government. But if we do we should have facts, not wild speculations.

I agree automatically linking Asian-looking people to the actions of China's government is racist. And there are a lot of racists out there. Given the ongoing spike in anti-Asian hate crimes [1] and online anti-Asian hate tied specifically to coronavirus [2] I think we should be unusually careful about excited speculation.

[1] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/anti-asian-hate-c...

[2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/10/09/twitter...

Re: The media's lab leak fiasco

#276
Wuhan discussing "synthetically derived viruses": https://web.archive.org/web/20200212011902/http://english.wh...

2017 conference at (Wuhan Institute of a virology) with gain of function research being top priority: http://english.whiov.cas.cn/Exchange2016/International_Confe...

Ecohealth Alliance partnership: https://web.archive.org/web/20210323171425/http://english.wh...

US Gov from state department: http://web.archive.org/web/20210116001621/https://www.state....

EcoHealth Alliance Peter Daszak discussing gene editing in coronaviruses in december 2019 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-Y843FFJvI

Note: The documentation isn’t even new... all those people banned and censored via Facebook, Twitter, Google, etc [1], have been saying this the entire time. Its kind of amazing to watch both realities (left wing media va alternative media) collide. Gives me hope to be honest.

[1] https://www.projectveritas.com/news/breaking-facebook-whistl...

Re: The media's lab leak fiasco

#277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were even videos of chinese scientists trying to get the word out about the virus and the lab leak liklihood. There was plenty of evidence, if you knew where to look. 'Evidence' is tangential to the decision making behind misinformation tags.

The problem is that "evidence" is pretty easy to find. Even the wildest conspiracy theories has pages and pages of links to their evidence. Who should evaluate the evidence for its credibility?

I don’t have an answer to that but it most certainly should NOT be New York Times, Business Insider, WAPO, FactCheckXYZ, etc style publications.

Re: The media's lab leak fiasco

#278
post #263

Another political article about how it's not possible that the Chinese were studying the virus and some underpaid lab tech screwed and and exposed himself and then did what humans always do, the tech tried to cover up the mistake. Nobody has still explained how the Chinese knew they had a problem in early December when they only had a handful of cases, like less than 100 cases. This is the question that needs to be a…

"Another political article about how it's not possible that the Chinese were studying the virus and some underpaid lab tech screwed and and exposed himself and then did what humans always do, the tech tried to cover up the mistake."

no, you're wrong. You need to focus attention not on the lab-leak, which could be small mistake by an underling, but instead on the gain-of-function research that is the goal of labs like Wuhan and likely created this virus with approval of the highest levels of the lab.

Re: The media's lab leak fiasco

#279
post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't use the word bad faith, but I think for a lot of people it was very likely motivated by political/social pressure more than by trying to find the truth. In a positive light one could interpret some of the dismissal as an effort to combat anti-Asian racism occuring here. In a somewhat more negative light one might think it was simply the move to make to avoid even remotely aligning with conservatives. There…

I see a very different dynamic reading the article. Remember, at the time this all happened Trump was still very publicly backing the Chinese government's response. Tom Cotton was very much bucking the party line in calling the CCP liars. What I see over and over throughout all of this is repeated conflation of "lab-leaked" and "man-made". Tom Cotton absolutely never even insinuated that the virus was man-made, only…

Yes I agree there was a lot of conflation of man made and lab leak, but I much more frequently saw people dismiss lab leak because of arguments focusing on man made, than people saying they believed the man made hypothesis because it could be a lab leak. That might just be my social circle though.

Similarly, I can't recall a time that lab leak wasn't considered a conservative conspiracy among my social circles, and that does include a conservative group from my hometown. In the exact same groups I do recall a rapid swapping of position on masks however.

That is of course anecdote, but in general Trump has been very critical of China, and also issued travel bans relatively early on that were painted as racist by the media. Additionally, Trump and his fans childishly insisted on calling COVID the "China flu" for awhile there.

So the origin of the lab leak hypothesis may not have been conservative, but from what I can tell they pretty quickly latched onto the potential for anti-China sentiment there. And not too long after that we had another situation where the Democrats decided to throw the baby out with the bathwater because they didn't like the ideas that had picked up steam with Trump supporters.

But maybe you're right it's a more untargeted lack of ability for nuance. Certainly in this case that's possible, as it's a more difficult technical topic. I just see the way some of my friends hedge fairly benign statements these days, out of fear of being associated with Trumpers. I actually know someone who got rid of the couple of red baseball caps they had because they were afraid people might think it's some sort of MAGA statement. Nuance is even harder when there's a fear of saying anything that might get you out-grouped.

Re: The media's lab leak fiasco

#280
post #5

Reminder that Facebook and Twitter banned users for talking about the lab-leak theory. Youtube accounts also got demontized/banned.

It’s all about the narrative, comrade. That their enforcement is so incredibly in sync is where more scandal resides.
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