Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#281

Post by asdff » Thu, May 27, 2021, 9:31 PM UTC

shepherdjerred wrote: post #135

graiz wrote: post #123

Tesla is a great at many things but managing customer/media expectations isn't among them. I'm sure Elon has the data and will tweet why vision is better, he may even back it up with really good data, but it's reactionary media management rather than preventative. How hard would it have been to write a press release explaining why they are removing radar, what it means to safety, and how it impacts the future of self…

Tesla doesn't have a PR department. It was dissolved last year. https://techcrunch.com/2020/10/15/teslas-decision-to-scrap-i...

No point in bothering with PR when elon still has access to his twitter to post ridiculous things

Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#282

Post by xnx » Thu, May 27, 2021, 9:32 PM UTC

ghoward wrote: post #96

gauravphoenix wrote: post #58

>removing radar sensors to transition to a camera-based Autopilot system A few weeks back, I had a terrible experience while using auto pilot. I was driving on a highway (in CA) with autopilot engaged. For the most part, there was a concrete median on the highway. Suddenly, a section came with no concrete median and a new left only turn lane gets added. For whatever reasons, autopilot thought it is a great idea to su…

More people need to see your comment because there seems to be a belief that full self driving is just around the corner. However, IMO, it will never happen because it needs a full artificial general intelligence. In your case, the new lane was clearly marked, which just shows how weak the system really is. Imagine if there was snow covering the lane markings. Or sunlight reflecting off of the road confuses the visio…

Self driving is really hard, but don't confuse Tesla's failings for the state of the art. Waymo's Driver is both much more advanced and much more cautious.

Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#283

Post by Closi » Thu, May 27, 2021, 9:32 PM UTC

henrikschroder wrote: post #196

Closi wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, IMO, it will never happen because it needs a full artificial general intelligence. I don’t think that’s true - but it certainly needs more than a couple of poor resolution cameras and some underpowered hardware powered by hype. You can see how poor the vision of these systems is by just watching a few Tesla autopilot videos and seeing cars flash into/out of recognition on the screen. The first actual self…

> I don’t think that’s true - but it certainly needs more than a couple of poor resolution cameras How would your imagined autopilot system handle traffic flaggers, construction workers with signs, or various people directing traffic with handsignals? How will your system see the difference between a police officer making hand signs that you have to obey, and some random person making hand signals? How will it solve…

The answer is quite simple in all these cases - it doesn't. A self driving car shouldn't be operating on some mysterious black-box AI interpretation of the intention of (often ambiguous) hand signals from drivers and police officers.

Any situation with hand-waving should be passed back to a human driver until the hand-waving can be eliminated with future laws and road rules. We aren't going to have full level-5 autonomy that's reliant on cameras interpreting people waggling their hands around.

The solution is that you architect a full system to allow for self driving, which will inevitably include changing how people interact with cars.

Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#284

Post by dec0dedab0de » Thu, May 27, 2021, 9:43 PM UTC

ghoward wrote: post #96

gauravphoenix wrote: post #58

>removing radar sensors to transition to a camera-based Autopilot system A few weeks back, I had a terrible experience while using auto pilot. I was driving on a highway (in CA) with autopilot engaged. For the most part, there was a concrete median on the highway. Suddenly, a section came with no concrete median and a new left only turn lane gets added. For whatever reasons, autopilot thought it is a great idea to su…

More people need to see your comment because there seems to be a belief that full self driving is just around the corner. However, IMO, it will never happen because it needs a full artificial general intelligence. In your case, the new lane was clearly marked, which just shows how weak the system really is. Imagine if there was snow covering the lane markings. Or sunlight reflecting off of the road confuses the visio…

I think self driving will catch on for special roads or lanes that are automatic only. Mostly on long highways that are mostly straight.

Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#285

Post by akerl_ » Thu, May 27, 2021, 9:46 PM UTC

takeda wrote: post #81

akerl_ wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Notably, even Tesla says that the vision-only cars will ship with reduced safety features which they’ll backfill later via software update. Given how long they’ve been promising that the FSD beta rollout is right around the corner, I’m not holding my breath.

I believe those are two different things. Tesla says that software update will be provided in the future that will enable these features using vision cameras (previously radar was used). NHTSA certified the radar solution and it didn't certified whether the vision one is as safe.

They’re the same thing: NHTSA certified the safety features provided by the radar. The vision system isn’t certified because it wasn’t reviewed, and it hasn’t been reviewed in part because Tesla hasn’t finished developing feature parity.

So until they finish developing and releasing the features, they aren’t available. Once that’s happened, NHTSA can review them for certification.

Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#286

Post by grandmczeb » Thu, May 27, 2021, 9:48 PM UTC

henrikschroder wrote: post #196

Closi wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, IMO, it will never happen because it needs a full artificial general intelligence. I don’t think that’s true - but it certainly needs more than a couple of poor resolution cameras and some underpowered hardware powered by hype. You can see how poor the vision of these systems is by just watching a few Tesla autopilot videos and seeing cars flash into/out of recognition on the screen. The first actual self…

> I don’t think that’s true - but it certainly needs more than a couple of poor resolution cameras How would your imagined autopilot system handle traffic flaggers, construction workers with signs, or various people directing traffic with handsignals? How will your system see the difference between a police officer making hand signs that you have to obey, and some random person making hand signals? How will it solve…

Waymo claims to already be able to deal with things like hand signals[1]. Assuming that’s true, would that make you question whether AGI is required?

[1] https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/waymo-self-driving-cars-p...

Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#287

Post by valine » Thu, May 27, 2021, 9:49 PM UTC

havemurci wrote: post #266

valine wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans are proof that's its possible to safely drive a car with pure vision. Pretty sure no human has ever propulsively landed a rocket on earth using nothing but vision.

Driving with headphones is illegal in 17 states. Can Tesla's Autopilot hear a horn or siren?

I mean what would you expect it to do with that data? When a person hears a siren it's a signal to check their mirrors for emergency vehicles. Auto pilot doesn't need to check mirrors, it always has a 360 view of its surroundings.

Of all the potential criticisms of fsd this is an odd one.

Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#288

Post by rootusrootus » Thu, May 27, 2021, 9:52 PM UTC

qRNA wrote: post #280

rootusrootus wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had a Tesla, and I still have a Bolt, so I have experienced both. The supercharging experience is smoother. But the standardized infrastructure generally works fine, even if it is more expensive. What I think a lot of people are starting to realize is that the road trip angle is small. It needs to work, but it doesn't make or break the experience. In both cases I found that I did 99% of my charging at home, and…

I think you can charge Tesla at any charger (at least in Europe)

Yes, European regulators demanded that Tesla support CCS2. I think Tesla still prevents non-Tesla cars from charging at their superchargers, but they can at least use standardized chargers.

Tesla is still 100% proprietary in the US.

Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#289

Post by ska » Thu, May 27, 2021, 9:55 PM UTC

kevinskii wrote: post #265

ska wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are correct about the 100ms (although 5s is too short, should be something like 30 given our understanding of task switching) but it's worth pointing out that the comparison you quote (and all those like it, not just from Tesla) is disingenuous. All the self driving companies do this, but it only makes sense to compare # of accidents/mile between like processes. It's an ok proxy for total risk iff accidents were…

Yes, and in addition, the comparison should be between similar vehicle body styles and manufacturing years.

True; a really interesting way to do these comparisons would be by narrow year, vehicle category, and purchaser (e.g. don't conflate fleet sales to private) as it normalizes a bunch of factors all at once. Sample size can be a problem, I expect.

Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#290

Post by jedberg » Thu, May 27, 2021, 9:56 PM UTC

For years I've been saying my next car will be a Tesla, because I wanted an electric car with autopilot.

A few weeks ago I got a Comma2, which runs OpenPilot, and installed it on my Honda Odyssey minivan. I've driven a Model X with autopilot, and I have to say, my minivan is just as good, if not in some cases better, than the Tesla.

I'm now much less excited about getting a Tesla. Knowing that I can upgrade basically any recent car to have autopilot, now I'm just waiting for an electric minivan that I can install OpenPilot on. And if I end up needing a sedan again, I'll most likely look first for an electric sedan from another automaker that I can add Openpilot to.

Edit: This is strange. This is my third comment that I mentioned OpenPilot, and in all three cases, my comment got a downvote within 30 seconds of posting it. I wonder, is there some bot that goes around downvoting posts/comments about OpenPilot? I don't think what I said was in any way controversial?