Citizen’s dangerous effort to cash in on vigilantism • Hacker News Board

Re: Citizen’s dangerous effort to cash in on vigilantism

#31

Post by contemporary343 » Thu, May 27, 2021, 8:33 PM UTC

Well, the app was originally called Vigilante with the goal of enabling... mob justice. So, this really isn't surprising.

Applying contemporary growth hacking and engagement techniques to making people feel afraid and seek private security is just abominable. LA county is 10 million people - there are going to be all kinds of criminal activities on any given day, but rarely anywhere close to you. The app though will make sure even a minor thing a few miles from you gets you revved up. Just a recipe for more social disfunction.

The worst part is that LA county and city decided to use Citizen for contract tracing during the pandemic, which drove up downloads in the LA: https://covid19.lacounty.gov/covid19-news/la-county-city-lea... - they really need to push back on this vigilante stuff now.

Re: Citizen’s dangerous effort to cash in on vigilantism

#32

Post by wolverine876 » Thu, May 27, 2021, 8:34 PM UTC

getcrunk wrote: post #9

It's crazy watching the world turn into a dystopia and being powerless to stop it. It not just about this company. If they fail another will replace it. Society seems to be on a convergent path with dystopian scifi. This, Chicago police automated policing program (detects crime before it happenes and actually hurt innocent people), racially biased facial recognition. I read an article today about some DNA software be…

> It's crazy watching the world turn into a dystopia and being powerless to stop it.

We feel powerless - I feel it too at times - but we're not. Who would have thought the world could change this much? We can change it also for the better. The social world we envision is very deeply ingrained in humans, probably through evolution. We are social creatures, not sociopathic.

I think a start is standing up for our human values (honesty, respect, fairness, justice, compassion, humanitarianism, reason, knowledge, etc. etc.- doing the right thing). The Internet has been seen as a different place, an experimental place, where those values don't matter or don't apply - we could try something different; it has been like a virutal game world where we can act out being someone different. The experiment is over. It turns out the values do matter (of course, there's reasons they survive human history) - and they matter more than in the physical world, due to the power of communication on the Internet.

It's time to stop accepting what we wouldn't accept at a dinner table or in a professional social situation (or choose your analogy). The Internet is part of IRL, no different than a restaurant. HN, for example, has much improved; I hope it will go further and adopt that concept.

Re: Citizen’s dangerous effort to cash in on vigilantism

#33

Post by _vertigo » Thu, May 27, 2021, 8:34 PM UTC

OldGoodNewBad wrote: post #17

In many communities it’s clear that the DAs won’t prosecute criminals, so vigilantism is inevitable. People demand justice, in other words punishment, for criminals, and they will obtain it if the system fails. We’re heading toward the Albanian model and that’s actually OK. If we all drop our little safe happy delusions we’ll see it’s necessary to get your own justice.

This attitude is fundamentally incompatible with American (really, all Western) civic values. It goes against what our entire system of law is built on.

Re: Citizen’s dangerous effort to cash in on vigilantism

#34

Post by esturk » Thu, May 27, 2021, 8:35 PM UTC

grenoire wrote: post #19

American HN readers: Is everything alright? It seems a new kind of on-the-edge over there. Does it truly feel unsafe to the extent that people resort to violent and intrusive systems like these?

Citizens are conditioned to believe that police will solve all the crimes from shows like True Crime, CSI, etc.

And when said criminals are such masterminds that even the police can't catch, they are then conditioned by superhero movies from Marvel, Superman, Batman, etc. that someone should rise up to catch such criminals, this is the end state.

See, every kid is taught and empowered growing up that they should stand up for what's right. And when the justice system is imperfect, everyone is trying to fix it in the best way they know how. Some are doing it politically, socially, physically, etc.

Re: Citizen’s dangerous effort to cash in on vigilantism

#35

Post by wolverine876 » Thu, May 27, 2021, 8:38 PM UTC

generalizations wrote: post #5

To clarify: the bounty was $10-30k for information leading to a specific suspect's arrest. When I first heard about it, it sounded like the bounty was a 'dead or alive' kind of thing.

Remember the impact on the victim beyond physical safety, both their reputation and the emotional cost. I hope they sue the f** out of Frame and Citizen.

Re: Citizen’s dangerous effort to cash in on vigilantism

#36

Post by coldcode » Thu, May 27, 2021, 8:38 PM UTC

vmception wrote: post #18

> The staffer who brought up the terms of service violation was ignored in that specific Slack room, and the broadcast continued This sums up my experience with diverse opinions and observations in tech companies

Also interesting that use Slack and apparently can't control someone inside from leaking said Slacks.

Re: Citizen’s dangerous effort to cash in on vigilantism

#37

Post by throwawaaarrgh » Thu, May 27, 2021, 8:38 PM UTC

getcrunk wrote: post #9

It's crazy watching the world turn into a dystopia and being powerless to stop it. It not just about this company. If they fail another will replace it. Society seems to be on a convergent path with dystopian scifi. This, Chicago police automated policing program (detects crime before it happenes and actually hurt innocent people), racially biased facial recognition. I read an article today about some DNA software be…

Dystopian novels aren't very sci-fi. Many of their authors just researched what was already going on in their own time and formed a new narrative around them. The only thing different today is how people allow themselves to be taken advantage of. They used to give up their freedom for security. Now they give up their privacy for entertainment. But even mega-corps being the new oligarchy isn't new. The railroads, oil companies, and newspapers were controlling government and public perception a century ago. The internet is the new railroad, and tech is the new oil and newspaper.

It's never going to change. Society is doped up on Uber Eats and Instagram Live and The Nightly 30 Minutes of Fear and Hate. People don't want to think about how their society is fucked, they want to think about who's going to win The Bachelor, or why The Other (Political Party, Nation, Ethnicity) is evil and must be destroyed. People much smarter than me have been pointing this out for a century, too.

Re: Citizen’s dangerous effort to cash in on vigilantism

#38

Post by bentcorner » Thu, May 27, 2021, 8:40 PM UTC

wearywanderer wrote: post #25

petermcneeley wrote: post #15

Perhaps this is a mere symptom of some other problem. In Canada I dont personally recall witnessing crime in my adult life. If I saw someone doing something criminal today I would just you know... call the cops. Perhaps in the USA the lived experience is somewhat different? Maybe more crime? Maybe the police dont show up?

It depends on the city and it depends on the crime. If you see somebody vandalizing property in Seattle and call the cops, they probably won't show up (sample size of 3 for me.)

+1. I live in a US suburb and have seen at a distance one violent crime in about 20 years. In Canada I've spent more time in the sketchier downtown areas and have personally experienced more crime, although it is still rare. Canadian suburbs are (in my experience) as equally dull as US ones.

That is to say, I have not perceived a difference between the US and Canada wrt crime.

Re: Citizen’s dangerous effort to cash in on vigilantism

#39

Post by fallingknife » Thu, May 27, 2021, 8:41 PM UTC

> "They don’t much care about the accuracy or the usefulness of the information they put out, they just want to push as many notifications to create that feeling of vulnerability that leads people to the subscription services."

But it's somehow not a problem when professional "journalists" do it?

Re: Citizen’s dangerous effort to cash in on vigilantism

#40

Post by getcrunk » Thu, May 27, 2021, 8:41 PM UTC

throwawaaarrgh wrote: post #37

getcrunk wrote: post #9

It's crazy watching the world turn into a dystopia and being powerless to stop it. It not just about this company. If they fail another will replace it. Society seems to be on a convergent path with dystopian scifi. This, Chicago police automated policing program (detects crime before it happenes and actually hurt innocent people), racially biased facial recognition. I read an article today about some DNA software be…

Dystopian novels aren't very sci-fi. Many of their authors just researched what was already going on in their own time and formed a new narrative around them. The only thing different today is how people allow themselves to be taken advantage of. They used to give up their freedom for security. Now they give up their privacy for entertainment. But even mega-corps being the new oligarchy isn't new. The railroads, oil…

Yea your right! My ethics in tech professor taught us that tech doesn't bring new issues just new presentations. U can abstract this all down to power/greed/tendencies of human nature (comfort, ease)