Earlier quoted context omitted.
My goal with finl is not to re-create TeX but to reimagine it. The macro-oriented programming language is a big pain point, as are the whole concept of category codes. In many instances, LaTeX is still hemmed in by the constraints of ca 1980 computing technology. If you look through tex.web, you'll see things like weird string concatenations that were done in order to save a handful of bytes of memory. It was a radic…
Recently I have been also thinking about TeX's internals, also because I feel the pain points you describe in at https://www.finl.xyz/ . I have too thought about experimenting with TeX rewrites/alternatives and particularly in Rust. I don't know if you are aware, but finl has been also submitted to Lobsters ( https://lobste.rs/s/udu5oe/finl_is_not_latex_reinventing_lat... ). One of the comments mentions SILE ( https:…
Finl is not LaTeX
31–40 of 47 posts
Re: Finl is not LaTeX
#32I think completing the rewrite[1] of Tectonic[2] (Rust-powered XeTeX) has bigger potential and it's already working in many cases. [1] https://github.com/crlf0710/tectonic [2] https://tectonic-typesetting.github.io/en-US/
Why would Tectonic have big potential? Why is it noteworthy at all? What benefits does it provide compared to ConTeXt?
While at the core there is always a TeX engine (original TeX, pdfTeX, XeTeX, LuaTeX) that provides typesetting primitives, almost everyone uses a macro package on top of that (plain TeX, LaTeX, ConTeXt) and there usually are many extending packages that are either targeted for one format or more of them (e.g. TikZ works in all three, while e.g. beamer is LaTeX specific). For many documents there can also be other external programs involved, e.g. BibTeX for bibliographies.
The idea of LaTeX is that it is a core that provides basic facilities and programmer interface. A lot of essential functionality is then implemented by external packages. Hence, one doesn't usually get away by only installing engine (e.g. XeTeX) and format (LaTeX) to get e.g. XeLaTeX, but needs many other packages, like fontspec (for macro interface of XeTeX's OpenType support). That is why people install distributions, like TeX Live or MikTeX, which provide a way for installing all engines, formats and packages (and other software like BibTeX and specialized TeX editors). Because of the single pass nature of TeX, to get things like forward references in documents right, one needs to process the document multiple times, there are scripts like "latexmk", which can do this automatically (it can even run BibTeX and other external software, the right number of times and in the right order).
In ConTeXt the situation is different. It is not a "minimal" format like LaTeX, but instead has all of the interesting functionality built in and nicely thought out. Also it has its own "distribution" that contains everything needed - the engine, format and even some fonts. While even ConTeXt has to be run multiple times to get references right, normally user doesn't even know about it, because "context" is a symlink to a script that does this automatically. Apart from that ConTeXt is vastly superior to any other TeX (both in engine and format).
Tectonic solves many pain points of XeLaTeX specifically: - no need to install a distribution, all necessary files are downloaded when needed (from standard TeX Live), - runs LaTeX / external programs the right number of times, - nicer command line interface, - AFAIK can be somewhat used programmatically,
But these problems are not present in ConTeXt. And even when comparing Tectonic to full TeX distrbutions, it obviously misses other engines / formats.
All in all: comparing Tectonic and ConTeXt is not straightforward. Both make it easy for users to compile (different kind of) TeX documents. My opinion: If you can use ConTeXt, do it. If you have to use LaTeX and can use modern variant of it, perhaps Tectonic is an easy way that lets you get away from knowing too much about all the internals of TeX, that you don't want to know anyways. (Installing "LaTeX" (and the size of it) is one of the biggest problems I see people have with it, so this easy way of getting started is not to be neglected.)
Re: Finl is not LaTeX
#33Earlier quoted context omitted.
Recently I have been also thinking about TeX's internals, also because I feel the pain points you describe in at https://www.finl.xyz/ . I have too thought about experimenting with TeX rewrites/alternatives and particularly in Rust. I don't know if you are aware, but finl has been also submitted to Lobsters ( https://lobste.rs/s/udu5oe/finl_is_not_latex_reinventing_lat... ). One of the comments mentions SILE ( https:…
There is also Patoline[1][2], but it looks abandoned now. [1] https://patoline.github.io/ [2] https://github.com/patoline/patoline
Re: Finl is not LaTeX
#34Earlier quoted context omitted.
I too have recently been interested in TeX and Rust. Apart from Tectonic (wrapper around XeTeX and dvipdfmx) and the attempt to rewrite it in Rust (your first link), I also found [1], an attempt to rewrite TeX itself in Rust. I also understand that you are a supporter of the Tectonic in Rust effort, so hopefully you can fill me in on the current progress. At first I though that just rewriting XeTeX/dvipdfmx in Rust j…
They have a forum but now discuss the switch to GitHub Discussions[1]. The issue about oxidizing everything is here[2]. If you want to help the project there is a number of issues[3] that can be done, in particular syncronization with the Tectonic mainline and XeTeX code update[4] [1] https://github.com/tectonic-typesetting/tectonic/issues/766 [2] https://github.com/tectonic-typesetting/tectonic/issues/459 [3] https:…
I will try to get involved, unfortunately I won't have much time for it in the near future.
Re: Finl is not LaTeX
#35Re: Finl is not LaTeX
#36Is this, like, a real thing that exists or just a blog post about a thing that should exist? I can't tell.
It's real, but at very early stages. I wouldn't have posted the link yet myself.
So what will it be: Java or C++.
No,... don't answer...
Joke aside, LaTeX was a pain to use 20 years ago and still is, so good luck on your endeavor !
Re: Finl is not LaTeX
#37It is not obvious, but you should turn on clippy in Rust plugin setting.
Re: Finl is not LaTeX
#38Earlier quoted context omitted.
My goal with finl is not to re-create TeX but to reimagine it. The macro-oriented programming language is a big pain point, as are the whole concept of category codes. In many instances, LaTeX is still hemmed in by the constraints of ca 1980 computing technology. If you look through tex.web, you'll see things like weird string concatenations that were done in order to save a handful of bytes of memory. It was a radic…
Recently I have been also thinking about TeX's internals, also because I feel the pain points you describe in at https://www.finl.xyz/ . I have too thought about experimenting with TeX rewrites/alternatives and particularly in Rust. I don't know if you are aware, but finl has been also submitted to Lobsters ( https://lobste.rs/s/udu5oe/finl_is_not_latex_reinventing_lat... ). One of the comments mentions SILE ( https:…
Is it better than markdown, as laid out by my browser and the free pluggin, and saved to pdf? Not from those examples.
Re: Finl is not LaTeX
#39Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why would Tectonic have big potential? Why is it noteworthy at all? What benefits does it provide compared to ConTeXt?
While I think that Tectonic can have benefits for those coming to "TeX", ConTeXt is by all means superior to all other TeXs and even Tectonic. While at the core there is always a TeX engine (original TeX, pdfTeX, XeTeX, LuaTeX) that provides typesetting primitives, almost everyone uses a macro package on top of that (plain TeX, LaTeX, ConTeXt) and there usually are many extending packages that are either targeted for…
For example, with the recent LMXT implementation, the lettrine module support was lost and things like the file naming convention for external typescripts changed all of a sudden. LMXT introduced cool features but not all are documented, maybe only on the source - and not all people like me know how to read plain TeX or have a hard time finding something in particular between that rather weird mess of source files with a weird naming convention
Re: Finl is not LaTeX
#40Earlier quoted context omitted.
I understand your motivation. The thing is, there were many attempts to reimagine TeX, and none of them succeeded. Not because there were bad ideas, far from that. It's a huge project requiring a significant development team.
Plus a huge number of TeX packages have been made and used. You can't just ask people to leave all of that and learn a new language.
* document classes. Creating document classes is too difficult with LaTeX and a new document class with finl will be a relatively trivial thing to create,
* extensions to LaTeX to remedy deficiencies. Some, like babel/polyglossia and the six million improvements on tabular would be things baked into the core format of finl. The most notable third-party ecosystem that would be translated would be the whole TikZ environment. I'm aiming to be able to allow TikZ illustrations to be cut and pasted into finl and to replicate at least the most common extensions. The other big one is the whole beamer ecosystem. The finl equivalent will keep similar if not identical syntax but will be superior in that it will be able to allow non-PDF backends for output (so, for example, one could run finl-ppt mypresentation.finl and get a PowerPoint presentation with all the capabilities that PowerPoint gives for things like animations and transitions that are difficult or impossible to achieve in a PDF-based presentation.