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USB-C is about to go from 100W to 240W, enough to power beefier laptops

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Re: USB-C is about to go from 100W to 240W, enough to power beefier laptops

#301

Post by Reason077 »

qubitcoder wrote: post #267
grawprog wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't had to delve into the world of trying to find an appropriate USB-C cable until fairly recently. I didn't actually understand the situation thinking a replacement USB-C cable should just work. Oh hell no and none of the packaging actually explains what features a cable supports, none of them actually explain what the cable is actually compatible with. The little android logo doesn't mean shit. Sure, you migh…

Welcome to the world of USB-C! My general approach, and recommendations to others, is to purchase only Thunderbolt 3 cables. Yes, they're more expensive. But they'll essentially handle everything you throw at them, and behave as expected (due to the large protocol support [0,1]). Of course, this won't always be the case. But it's generally a safe assumption for now. [0] https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/product…

> "My general approach, and recommendations to others, is to purchase only Thunderbolt 3 cables ... they'll essentially handle everything you throw at them"

Is this really true? My Thunderbolt monitor (LG Ultrafine 4K) came with two cables: Thunderbolt 3 (for connecting to Thunderbolt laptops) and USB-C (for connecting to iPads etc which don't support Thunderbolt). Why would two different cables be needed if the Thunderbolt 3 one can do it all?

Re: USB-C is about to go from 100W to 240W, enough to power beefier laptops

#302

Post by vokep »

fouric wrote: post #291
koube wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Nintendo Switch can be bricked if you use the wrong cable, although my understanding is that it's not built to the USB-C spec: https://www.reddit.com/r/NintendoSwitch/comments/87vmud/the_... Either way, this is an incredibly common device that can be damaged by incompatible hardware where it's difficult to determine compatibility without bricking the device.

> it's difficult to determine compatibility without bricking the device This is the problem! This is what everybody talking about the specs doesn't get - it's difficult to (1) tell which spec a device claims to support and (2) verify that it actually supports it (see: a lot of cheap devices on Amazon) and also (3) in real life many devices do not support the specs (i.e. this isn't a theoretical problem).

Unless I'm mistaken, there is a license to call a port a USB port, though goods are commonly sold without that. In theory the solution is simple: only buy products that have the actual USB logo and ensure certification, and the USB-IF should retain the right to significantly fine any manufacturer advertising being to spec and using the logo who is in fact not.

In practice, people aren't going to stop buying nintendo switches, unfortunately.

Still, its not entirely necessary to support all specs or have that be entirely clear, what does need to be clear is if you can expect safety specs to be followed. If I plug in my nintendo switch to a charger thinking it'll charge at lightspeed but it takes hours, oh well. If I plug it in and it destroys the device then that should be pretty much an unforgivable problem. Personally I'd be happy to abstain from buying such a device due to that, though also personally I did buy one, expecting no issues, and only found out months later when seeing it mentioned somewhere online. Ideally research is done on every product to ensure things like this aren't the case, but again in practice, that doesn't always happen.

I'm not sure what the fix is, other than outright making USB not so universal by requiring a license for any and all vendors using the design, if the license is cheap enough, maybe that could work? I don't know the legalities so much but maybe a free license could be required for any implementation, which would only have the spec of "make sure it doesn't brick charger or device, and make sure it doesn't catch on fire"

Re: USB-C is about to go from 100W to 240W, enough to power beefier laptops

#304

Post by exporectomy »

ekianjo wrote: post #261
sz4kerto wrote: post #257

USB-C bashing threads represent the 'HN echo chamber' for me. :) I understand the problems of different cables, I've run into them already. One cable can do Thunderbolt, the other cannot. One cable transmits 4K video signal, the others doesn't transmit anything. And so on. However, it is sooooo much better than anything before because at least _most of the time_ stuff works. Chargers charge. Sometimes slower, sometim…

> USB-C bashing threads represent the 'HN echo chamber' for me. :) If only they had proper labeling and specs, all of this could be avoided. If you make all cables look the same, why on Earth would end users believe they are different?

And if you don't enforce your logo IP use. All sorts of random 2-wire under-spec power-only cables and forbidden male-female extension cables have the USB logo on them. Look at this obviously wrong statement from the article:

“All EPR cables shall be visibly identified with EPR cable identification items,”

No they won't! Just like all the other stupid confusing and incorrectly implemented "rules" for labelling and orientation and everything. Even if they do it consistently, nobody will know which of all the many confusing logos means what and for some reason OSs don't show the user which component is incompatible in which way so you'll be happily enjoying 100W from your 240W charger unaware it's not actually 240W.

Re: USB-C is about to go from 100W to 240W, enough to power beefier laptops

#305

Post by NovemberWhiskey »

zlsa wrote: post #279
alerighi wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not using the proper cable could lead also to fires, for example. We are talking about a significant amount of current. If you don't use a cable rated for that current, the cable or the connector will overheat, and possibly start a fire. And it's not a remote possibility. It happened to me with a fast charging phone power supply and the phone, and the cable was the one provided by the manufacturer! The type-C connect…

It should be impossible for any set of non-damaged, non-defective, spec-compliant set of USB-C cables and peripherals to cause fires. The specifications are very carefully designed to prevent any combination of cables and devices from causing damage.

Yeah the problem is that there's nothing to stop product designers from specifying the connectors even though the device doesn't logically support the implied standards.

Some people here talked about the Switch; but it's a general problem. For example: I have an external USB drive that has a Type A USB 3 host socket on the back of it (???). It came with a cable with a Type A USB 3 plug on one end and a USB C plug on the other end.

Now that's a combination of connectors you will definitely see elsewhere. I have such a cable that came with my PS5 for charging its controllers - but I know for a fact that it's not interchangeable with the one for my external drive.

Re: USB-C is about to go from 100W to 240W, enough to power beefier laptops

#306

Post by MrSourz »

skybrian wrote: post #174
cletus wrote: post #11

I look forward to USB 4.1a Type C.2 Phase iii.b Gen 3E and the 482646282 different cable capability combinations that all plug in and have no distinction of those capabilities whatsoever. I also look forward to all the necessary and helpful posts telling me how the identical ports on my laptop are in fact diffferent despite their identical appearance. But at least everything uses the same plug, so that’s nice.

It actually is sort of nice, because "works" isn't binary. It's nice to be able to charge a laptop with what you have, even if it doesn't charge quite as fast. You can transfer data over a cable at lower speeds even if it doesn't run at top speed. Using the "right" cable is performance optimization. This isn't like the old days when plugging things in the wrong way might damage your machine.

A good example happened to me yesterday. I brought my MacBook and charger to my partner’s family’s place along with my USB-C SSD that has some files I thought I might need on it; however, I managed to forget the USB-C charging cable for my computer. I ended up using the USB-C cable that came with my SSD. It’s not charging at full speed, but it’s working!

Re: USB-C is about to go from 100W to 240W, enough to power beefier laptops

#307

Post by Latty »

darrenf wrote: post #242

I genuinely don’t understand how I’ve managed to be so lucky. That is, I absolutely do not disbelieve the many tales of woe I hear on HN (like the many in this thread) - but I’ve literally never put any thought into what cable I plug in to what device, and had no trouble that I can recall. It really had lived up to its hype for me so far. My USB-C devices are: a wireless charger, two MacBooks (one intel, one m1), a P…

Same deal. I've switched everything I can to USB-C, and so far had literally zero issues.

Obviously my phone charger will charge a laptop more slowly, but I had that issue with micro-USB and Kindle chargers that couldn't charge a phone faster than it used the power, so hardly anything new or unexpected.

Re: USB-C is about to go from 100W to 240W, enough to power beefier laptops

#308

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

dangerlibrary wrote: post #243
dragontamer wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We are talking about a significant amount of current. Are we? I'm not sure how they deliver more power in this specification. But traditionally, the additional power (from 5W to 20W to 100W) was through additional *voltage*, not current. > And it's not something trivial that power supplies and phones can detect, there is not a way to determinate the voltage drop in the cable built into the standard (basically all t…

> Voltage can't go up arbitrarily, but voltage can safely be increased to ~48V or so in most applications. After 48V, humans start to get shocked / hurt, so that's probably the reasonable limit. Car batteries in ICE cars are nominally 12v. Grab both terminals and tell me it doesn't hurt.

When I was a kid, we had this massive high-voltage transformer that produced about 2,000 volts, at some sick amperage.

We used it to make jacob's ladders. That was fun.

Until I touched the two bars.

I woke up on the other side of the room, smelling burning...me.

That wasn't fun...

Re: USB-C is about to go from 100W to 240W, enough to power beefier laptops

#309

Post by unparagoned »

alerighi wrote: post #216
skybrian wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It actually is sort of nice, because "works" isn't binary. It's nice to be able to charge a laptop with what you have, even if it doesn't charge quite as fast. You can transfer data over a cable at lower speeds even if it doesn't run at top speed. Using the "right" cable is performance optimization. This isn't like the old days when plugging things in the wrong way might damage your machine.

Not using the proper cable could lead also to fires, for example. We are talking about a significant amount of current. If you don't use a cable rated for that current, the cable or the connector will overheat, and possibly start a fire. And it's not a remote possibility. It happened to me with a fast charging phone power supply and the phone, and the cable was the one provided by the manufacturer! The type-C connect…

When I last worked with USB, there were all sorts of resistors over the pins telling you about its capabilities. I'm pretty sure usb-c has that as well. Your device should check the spec of the cable and inly draw the amount if power its rated for

Re: USB-C is about to go from 100W to 240W, enough to power beefier laptops

#310

Post by rrrrrrrrrrrryan »

Mountain_Skies wrote: post #255

Does there exist a device that you can plug in USB and HDMI cables and have it tell you what features, modes, etc that cable supports? Seems like having something like that wouldn't eliminate all the problems but would make them easier to deal with by quickly identifying that the cable you tested is or is not appropriate for the task at hand. That aside, I'm looking forward to running my laundry room off of a dozen U…

This is my only qualm with all the different standards. I just want some way, any way at all, to tell whether stuff works the way it's supposed to. Either label the cords and outlets (via printed acronyms, or color-coding, or cryptic symbols, I don't care), or provide the information software-side.

I can't believe Microsoft and Apple haven't built this into their operating systems. Sometimes it's near-impossible to figure out what Bluetooth standard I'm using, or HDMI, or USB, and I feel like it wouldn't be a monstrously hard problem to solve, as long as the devices are already successfully talking to each other.

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