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USB-C is about to go from 100W to 240W, enough to power beefier laptops

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Re: USB-C is about to go from 100W to 240W, enough to power beefier laptops

#251

Post by Dylan16807 »

OldGoodNewBad wrote: post #217
smoldesu wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the record, the M1's GPU performance doesn't even start to compete with the 2021 laptop market, much less the 2014 one. GPUs have always been the biggest power draw in these laptops, and it's honestly no surprise that Apple can cut their power consumption down to 10w when their GPU is as pathetic as it is.

Yikes dude you work for Intel?

Do you have an actual disagreement? A 14nm Intel chip might waste an extra 20 watts, but when you get into hundred watt territory it's fair to call that a GPU thing.

Re: USB-C is about to go from 100W to 240W, enough to power beefier laptops

#252

Post by Nextgrid »

standardUser wrote: post #225

I'm having a hard time understand the negative comments here. Can some explain precisely what the commenters here know that the USB-IF doesn't? Because according to the comments here this won't work, will cause frequent fires and is an all around insane and unworkable idea.

> what the commenters here know that the USB-IF doesn't

The fact that in the real world, in 2021, it's still impossible to tell what standard a particular cable or device supports. I have several cables in my possession, and only through trial and error I can tell you which cable supports what, and I'm lucky enough that these cables are high-quality and fail "safely" but technically they don't have to.

Yes I know that technically the computer and USB-C controller knows which cable supports what, and yet so far no consumer-grade device has any kind of UI to tell me which cable supports what. I guess I can probably figure it out using the command line, but that would solve the problem for me but not the average non-technical user who just wants a cable that works.

In the old days, you could buy a USB-A to micro USB cable and have it work and charge your phone. You could buy an HDMI cable and have it work and send video to a monitor. With USB-C, you can't know which cable supports what until you've spent hours researching and understanding how USB-C works and the different alternate modes, and even then, cables might be mislabeled and you still can't be sure until you actually try it.

All the above is at least somewhat "safe" because the worst that can happen is that the device gets damaged, but if you suddenly start increasing power levels, non-compliant cables will start burning down houses.

Re: USB-C is about to go from 100W to 240W, enough to power beefier laptops

#253

Post by ctoth »

bogidon wrote: post #229
grlass wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if the the committee have looked at integrating colour or some other indicator into the standard so that cable/port capabilities are clear visually. Though ofc the design challenge is for users to feel comfortable that putting red into blue won't break anything, it just might not give the expected features.

From the actual spec[1]: > All EPR cables shall be Electronically Marked and include EPR-specific information in the eMarker as defined by the USB PD specification. As defined in the USB PD specification, EPR cables are marked as 50 V and 5 A capable. All EPR cables shall be visibly identified with EPR cable identification icons as defined by the USB-IF. This is required so that end users will be able to confirm visu…

Can confirm, sucks if you're blind.

Re: USB-C is about to go from 100W to 240W, enough to power beefier laptops

#254

Post by smoldesu »

h8hawk wrote: post #212
smoldesu wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the record, the M1's GPU performance doesn't even start to compete with the 2021 laptop market, much less the 2014 one. GPUs have always been the biggest power draw in these laptops, and it's honestly no surprise that Apple can cut their power consumption down to 10w when their GPU is as pathetic as it is.

Which kind of laptops are you speaking for? M1 GPu performance Blow any integrated gpu and all middle class separate GPUs (mx250, etc).

The mx250 is not a "middle class DGPU" because there is no class below it. It's Nvidia's weakest dedicated graphics card they continue to sell, and it's a pretty terrible point of comparison. A better example would be the GTX 1060, a middle-class dedicated GPU that made it's way into many budget gaming laptops 7 years ago. It is faster than the M1's GPU.

The Mac has a very dedicated audience of video and design professionals who are going to be left empty-handed here, even if they double or triple the amount of GPU cores in the SOC.

Re: USB-C is about to go from 100W to 240W, enough to power beefier laptops

#255

Post by Mountain_Skies »

Does there exist a device that you can plug in USB and HDMI cables and have it tell you what features, modes, etc that cable supports? Seems like having something like that wouldn't eliminate all the problems but would make them easier to deal with by quickly identifying that the cable you tested is or is not appropriate for the task at hand.

That aside, I'm looking forward to running my laundry room off of a dozen USB-C connectors hooked up in parallel.

Re: USB-C is about to go from 100W to 240W, enough to power beefier laptops

#256

Post by StrictDabbler »

dangerlibrary wrote: post #243
dragontamer wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We are talking about a significant amount of current. Are we? I'm not sure how they deliver more power in this specification. But traditionally, the additional power (from 5W to 20W to 100W) was through additional *voltage*, not current. > And it's not something trivial that power supplies and phones can detect, there is not a way to determinate the voltage drop in the cable built into the standard (basically all t…

> Voltage can't go up arbitrarily, but voltage can safely be increased to ~48V or so in most applications. After 48V, humans start to get shocked / hurt, so that's probably the reasonable limit. Car batteries in ICE cars are nominally 12v. Grab both terminals and tell me it doesn't hurt.

Ok, done. Many many many times.

12v can't exceed the resistance of human skin so it doesn't matter how much current capacity it has. You can hold onto those terminals all day.

It's settled science. If you doubt it, tests of this are all over YouTube. It's just true.

Now your tongue, perhaps...

Re: USB-C is about to go from 100W to 240W, enough to power beefier laptops

#257

Post by sz4kerto »

USB-C bashing threads represent the 'HN echo chamber' for me. :)

I understand the problems of different cables, I've run into them already. One cable can do Thunderbolt, the other cannot. One cable transmits 4K video signal, the others doesn't transmit anything. And so on.

However, it is sooooo much better than anything before because at least _most of the time_ stuff works. Chargers charge. Sometimes slower, sometimes faster, but things mostly work.

Re: USB-C is about to go from 100W to 240W, enough to power beefier laptops

#258

Post by dandelany »

dangerlibrary wrote: post #243
dragontamer wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We are talking about a significant amount of current. Are we? I'm not sure how they deliver more power in this specification. But traditionally, the additional power (from 5W to 20W to 100W) was through additional *voltage*, not current. > And it's not something trivial that power supplies and phones can detect, there is not a way to determinate the voltage drop in the cable built into the standard (basically all t…

> Voltage can't go up arbitrarily, but voltage can safely be increased to ~48V or so in most applications. After 48V, humans start to get shocked / hurt, so that's probably the reasonable limit. Car batteries in ICE cars are nominally 12v. Grab both terminals and tell me it doesn't hurt.

...it doesn't hurt. Dry skin isn't conductive enough to pass any significant current at 12V. But if you inserted electrodes into your fingers so the electricity conducted through your wet inner bits, you can be killed by a lot less than 12V across the heart.

Re: USB-C is about to go from 100W to 240W, enough to power beefier laptops

#259

Post by Dylan16807 »

sanjiwatsuki wrote: post #249
smoldesu wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the record, the M1's GPU performance doesn't even start to compete with the 2021 laptop market, much less the 2014 one. GPUs have always been the biggest power draw in these laptops, and it's honestly no surprise that Apple can cut their power consumption down to 10w when their GPU is as pathetic as it is.

I don't think this is accurate. [0] and [1] have 3DMark Ice Storm Unlimited Graphics benchmark tested on both the M1 and the 4800U in the Lenovo Yoga Slim-7-14ARE and the M1's GPU stomps the Vega 8 R4000. It outscores even the Ryzen 5000 series iGPU. I've seen no evidence that the M1's GPU is anything but best in class for integrated graphics. [0] https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-M1-GPU-GPU-Benchmarks-an... [1] ht…

From "doesn't even start to compete" and "GPUs have always been the biggest power draw" I don't think they were comparing to integrated.
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