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Italian seaside residents hit with bygone feudal tax

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Re: Italian seaside residents hit with bygone feudal tax

#151

Post by rini17 »

Aperocky wrote: post #136
tpm wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Add to that the Hungarian inheritance rules - properties were divided evenly between the heirs, so I can now own a 13/6240 of an agricultural field. The farm still pays me a small yearly dividend and offers to buy my share, but that's really everything what can be done with it.

Are wills not respected? Usually wills try to leave (different) things in one owner.

They aren't widely used. Parents prefer to divide property between children by donating it while they are alive.

Re: Italian seaside residents hit with bygone feudal tax

#152

Post by amelius »

mustafa_pasi wrote: post #138

I find these property rights that go back centuries a bit dubious. How was the property obtained in the first place? There were no modern laws at the time and common people had much fewer rights and protections. If the property was not obtained through outright violence, it was obtained in an environment that very much discriminated against common people, and God knows how much fraud and deception occurred. It actual…

Yeah, but capitalism isn't exactly fair either, with wealth ending up at a small percentage of people who clearly didn't work as much or took as much risk as all the other people combined. So if you go with that argument, then a much bigger reform should happen, not just the annihilation of these taxes.

Re: Italian seaside residents hit with bygone feudal tax

#153

Post by nicoburns »

amelius wrote: post #152
mustafa_pasi wrote: post #138

I find these property rights that go back centuries a bit dubious. How was the property obtained in the first place? There were no modern laws at the time and common people had much fewer rights and protections. If the property was not obtained through outright violence, it was obtained in an environment that very much discriminated against common people, and God knows how much fraud and deception occurred. It actual…

Yeah, but capitalism isn't exactly fair either, with wealth ending up at a small percentage of people who clearly didn't work as much or took as much risk as all the other people combined. So if you go with that argument, then a much bigger reform should happen, not just the annihilation of these taxes.

Parent doesn't question just taxes, they question property rights aka ownership. That is the much bigger reform you talk about.

Re: Italian seaside residents hit with bygone feudal tax

#154

Post by jmkb »

acheron wrote: post #120
jmkb wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My favorite piece-of-land word is "gore," which is either a triangular parcel formed where roads intersect at an acute angle, or a narrow strip of land (usually also an acute triangle) of uncertain ownership resulting from inaccurate surveying. It's derived from the Old English word for spear, which also came to mean stab, and a stab wound, and eventually blood-n-guts in general.

Yep. Old English word for spear was "gar". One vegetable was related to the leek, but they described the clove as spear-shaped: the gar-leek. https://www.etymonline.com/word/garlic

Hah. I assume the English were looking at the budding shoot (aka "garlic scape" [0]) when they named it, whereas the Germans were looking at the knobby root (Knoblauch = knob leek).

[0] https://ediblejersey.ediblecommunities.com/recipes/garlic-sc...

Re: Italian seaside residents hit with bygone feudal tax

#155

Post by brewdad »

yonaguska wrote: post #55
jokethrowaway wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Income tax in the USA was meant to be a temporary measure to support a war effort. There are similar stories in other countries. There's nothing more permanent than a temporary government plan.

I hope that no one is making this same comment about masks and social distancing in 20 years.

Masks suck but I enjoy having a bit of my personal space back.

Re: Italian seaside residents hit with bygone feudal tax

#156

Post by alach11 »

PicassoCTs wrote: post #140
rini17 wrote: post #117

Consider yourself lucky that you can reliably trace land ownership for centuries. Eastern Europe went through multiple upheavals in last 100 years and every time the wheel of history turned, quite a lot of land was dispossessed/repossessed by law. In Slovakia we basically ended up with two versions of land registry (called register "C" and "E") and the ongoing effort to reconcile them. Many properties are said to be…

In east germany, there are strange constellations, were someone might own the ground, but not the house upon it and vice versa. Some pieces of land were bought, before the original "owning" aristocrats descendants laid claim to them. In west germany, there were, originally very small, medieval fields, so a "Flurbereinigung" happened several times. This led to larger fields to work on, but below, some of them still ar…

This split ownership reminds me of a similar situation in the USA, where different entities can own the surface rights and mineral rights. What gets weird, is owning the mineral rights legally entitles you to use the surface (to a limited degree) to access the minerals.

Re: Italian seaside residents hit with bygone feudal tax

#157

Post by nly »

ateng wrote: post #64
yunohn wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> elected officials have an extremely strong bias to adding/amending versus repealing/scaling back I find this to be a crippling problem of how politics works in modern democracies. Taxes are a great example, because almost every country will increase it, but never decrease it. They’ll think of a 100 new ways to extract taxes, but never remove outdated ones.

Not necessarily. 50s / 60s US income tax is much, much higher than current rate. I just think the cycle of going up and down is extremely long. https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Historical_Margina...

The top rates were much higher but few people actually paid those high rates due to loopholes.

These days people are paying more in real terms in aggregate.

Re: Italian seaside residents hit with bygone feudal tax

#158

Post by bigbillheck »

reedjosh wrote: post #121
bigbillheck wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also no-one now alive who voted for women's suffrage, or the banning of the international slave trade, or the right to bear arms.

Non-aggression and property rights are the only laws that truly matter. Natural rights stem from these principals. > women's suffrage If a government doesn't have a monopoly of force, nobody needs to vote or even acknowledge the government. > banning of the international slave trade Your body is your possession. Slavery violates that and the non-aggression principle. > the right to bear arms Who grants this right? Th…

> Non-aggression and property rights are the only laws that truly matter

That's certainly an assertion, but not one that I accept.

Re: Italian seaside residents hit with bygone feudal tax

#159

Post by jakub_g »

rini17 wrote: post #117

Consider yourself lucky that you can reliably trace land ownership for centuries. Eastern Europe went through multiple upheavals in last 100 years and every time the wheel of history turned, quite a lot of land was dispossessed/repossessed by law. In Slovakia we basically ended up with two versions of land registry (called register "C" and "E") and the ongoing effort to reconcile them. Many properties are said to be…

Isn't there any law saying that "if no one claims it for N years, the state takes it" / "if someone else uses a place for N years and no one else claims it, that person can claim it?" [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usucaption

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