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Italian seaside residents hit with bygone feudal tax

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Re: Italian seaside residents hit with bygone feudal tax

#111

Post by [deleted] »

Spooky23 wrote: post #96
nomercy400 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kind of strange that the Dutch are blamed for this, when the British took over mid-1600 and the Americans after the independence war end-1700. Those are two moments where this whole notion of feudal estates could easily have been abolished, but for some reason the new rulers decided against this.

I’m not “blaming” anyone, these are just facts on the ground from nearly 500 years ago. I was introduced to this stuff as a teenager working for an old farm - their family was one of a few that had a land grant. The original taxes were 10 pigs and some wheat! The Dutch colonial system, continued in some form for a period of time. I’m afraid I’m ignorant of the details and complexity of land policy as the English, the…

[deleted]

Re: Italian seaside residents hit with bygone feudal tax

#112

Post by rnhmjoj »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #81

I wonder what obligations the Swiss lords have been neglecting. Perhaps the townsfolk could bill for absent services? They are not peasants, as such things likely don't exist in modern Italy. So how can they owe anything? The Swiss baron's descendants - are they still barons? Can they still hold a fief? Perhaps the Swiss baron's lord can be convinced to levy a similar tax on them, and return the money to the town. It…

From a quick search, it seems this "tax" is part of an ancient (roman law) land contract called Emphyteusis[1] that's still recognized as a valid by the italian civil codex, despite not being in common use. I don't think it has anything to do with special nobiliar priviledges: it's just that these barons claim to own land and the relative rights under this contract.

Apparently, the land owner has no obligations, but the lease-holder instead is bound to pay an annual canon and "improve the land", whatever that means, perpetually.

[1]: https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enfiteusi

Re: Italian seaside residents hit with bygone feudal tax

#113

Post by FpUser »

clarkmoody wrote: post #105
FpUser wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"Why do you assume taxes are a payment for services?" Because the only alternative in this case is the outright theft. >"there is no implied right or obligation of any sort." Sorry but there is implied obligation. I totally expect to get some services in return for money taken from me and I suspect I am not alone. For experiment try sending part of government that does actual services for constituents for a year lon…

Alternate experiment: try to force the government to perform a service for you.

It actually does happen every once in a while

Re: Italian seaside residents hit with bygone feudal tax

#114

Post by tomcooks »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #81

I wonder what obligations the Swiss lords have been neglecting. Perhaps the townsfolk could bill for absent services? They are not peasants, as such things likely don't exist in modern Italy. So how can they owe anything? The Swiss baron's descendants - are they still barons? Can they still hold a fief? Perhaps the Swiss baron's lord can be convinced to levy a similar tax on them, and return the money to the town. It…

You don't have to serve a lord nor be a peasant, you pay for the use of "their" land.

This happens in many other places in Italy. One example that comes to mind is a part of the money collected from fishing permits on Lake Maggiore (tragically famous lately for the Stress cabin disaster) going to the pockets of an aristocratic family who "owns" the lake and the fishing rights.

Disgusting to say the least, but that's law.

Re: Italian seaside residents hit with bygone feudal tax

#115

Post by nomercy400 »

Spooky23 wrote: post #96
nomercy400 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kind of strange that the Dutch are blamed for this, when the British took over mid-1600 and the Americans after the independence war end-1700. Those are two moments where this whole notion of feudal estates could easily have been abolished, but for some reason the new rulers decided against this.

I’m not “blaming” anyone, these are just facts on the ground from nearly 500 years ago. I was introduced to this stuff as a teenager working for an old farm - their family was one of a few that had a land grant. The original taxes were 10 pigs and some wheat! The Dutch colonial system, continued in some form for a period of time. I’m afraid I’m ignorant of the details and complexity of land policy as the English, the…

I haven't got the facts either. Yet a lot has happened in those 500 years, and it would be a shame not to mention that.

After mid-1600 the Dutch have had very little to say in New York (or should I say New Amsterdam, still such a shame they changed the name..), when the British decided New York should be theirs, despite being at peace with the Dutch. I wonder if the Dutch heritage still be taught in schools in the US.

Re: Italian seaside residents hit with bygone feudal tax

#116

Post by adolph »

Spooky23 wrote: post #51

I grew up in an area of upstate New York where the land was mostly apportioned into feudal estates by the Dutch. There were anti-rent rebellions in the 19th century and the descendants of the patroons stopped collecting the rent. But… folks never had title to their land and were effectively stuck until a law was passed in the 1960s. It’s really interesting as the effect is that many families have lived there for 400…

After the English takeover of New Netherland in 1664 and American independence in 1783, the system continued with the granting of large tracts known as manors, and sometimes referred to as patroonships.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patroon

Re: Italian seaside residents hit with bygone feudal tax

#117

Post by rini17 »

Consider yourself lucky that you can reliably trace land ownership for centuries. Eastern Europe went through multiple upheavals in last 100 years and every time the wheel of history turned, quite a lot of land was dispossessed/repossessed by law.

In Slovakia we basically ended up with two versions of land registry (called register "C" and "E") and the ongoing effort to reconcile them. Many properties are said to be "nevysporiadané" = "not settled up" which means all the owners are not known - previous landowner died or emigrated and it waits for their descendants to claim it. It isn't possible to build anything on these lots.

Re: Italian seaside residents hit with bygone feudal tax

#118

Post by jackfoxy »

nomercy400 wrote: post #76
Spooky23 wrote: post #51

I grew up in an area of upstate New York where the land was mostly apportioned into feudal estates by the Dutch. There were anti-rent rebellions in the 19th century and the descendants of the patroons stopped collecting the rent. But… folks never had title to their land and were effectively stuck until a law was passed in the 1960s. It’s really interesting as the effect is that many families have lived there for 400…

Kind of strange that the Dutch are blamed for this, when the British took over mid-1600 and the Americans after the independence war end-1700. Those are two moments where this whole notion of feudal estates could easily have been abolished, but for some reason the new rulers decided against this.

It was not unusual in the past for changes in sovereignty to still respect the prior established private property rights. For instance both the Louisiana purchase and annexation of California promised in law to respect existing Spanish land grants. So while this was the case in legal theory, these rights were not immune to corruption.

I grew up on land in the Bay Area that formerly belonged to the Ranchero de las Pulgas, and now I live in the east bay. I don't remember the name of the Ranchero here, but much of it had already been sold off to yankee traders before 1846. In both cases after annexation the widows controlling the remaining land were ripped-off by shyster lawyers. IIRC in one or both cases the widow's own lawyer! This despite the fact the family of Ranchero de las Pulgas had thrown in with the American cause during the Mexican American War.

Re: Italian seaside residents hit with bygone feudal tax

#119

Post by andreareina »

folli wrote: post #63
aclelland wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah there are a lot of very obscure legal rules that most people aren't aware of or haven't been enforced in many years. Not from as far back but my house was built in the early 1980's and my house deeds include the stipulation that I must maintain a garage attached to the property (so I can't convert it to extra living space) because the local government retain the right to convert the space into a decontamination…

In Switzerland, the rule that every house must be constructed with an appropriate fallout shelter has only been relaxed 10 years ago. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-swiss-bunker-idUSTRE7B01R...

Singapore still has mandatory bomb shelters.

Re: Italian seaside residents hit with bygone feudal tax

#120

Post by acheron »

jmkb wrote: post #109
bellyfullofbac wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wiktionary says: Pprobably from Old English buttuc (“end; end piece”; also, “short piece of land”). I wonder how "to expel" ends up being "a short piece of land"...

My favorite piece-of-land word is "gore," which is either a triangular parcel formed where roads intersect at an acute angle, or a narrow strip of land (usually also an acute triangle) of uncertain ownership resulting from inaccurate surveying. It's derived from the Old English word for spear, which also came to mean stab, and a stab wound, and eventually blood-n-guts in general.

Yep. Old English word for spear was "gar". One vegetable was related to the leek, but they described the clove as spear-shaped: the gar-leek. https://www.etymonline.com/word/garlic
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