EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies • Hacker News Board

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#331

Post by triceratops » Tue, May 25, 2021, 2:34 PM UTC

EliRivers wrote: post #304

julianlam wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A currency exchange is a zero sum transaction. Whether it is US dollars or Philippine pesos makes no difference, the value stayed in-country. When it gets sent overseas, it leaves the country and is spent elsewhere, so that is a loss in value for the originating country. The only value remaining would be whatever fee was charged on its way out.

I disagree. If the US prints a million dollars, and some does a million dollars' worth of work in the US (or someone outside the US sends over a shipload of electronics in exchange for that big back of dollars) and moves that million dollars overseas, and those dollars never come back to be spent in the US, the US has gained. The US got a whole lot of work done, and did not have to give anyone goods or services in ex…

> In the future, someone might come back with those dollars and exchange them for goods and services which they move outside the US.

That's pretty much the only reason anyone has for taking any foreign currency.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#332

Post by triceratops » Tue, May 25, 2021, 2:36 PM UTC

londons_explore wrote: post #157

mcky wrote: post #145

Worth noting in all of this that Belarus recently closed their land borders to citizens [1], under the guise of COVID, but in reality to stop people leaving. The only way out was flying from Minsk, which is now even less of an option if there are no flights to the EU. As others have said these sanctions will likely do more to harm the repressed citizens of the regime than Lukashenko [1] https://www.bnt.eu/cs/zpravy/p…

I'd like to see a worldwide agreement that no country will ever stop a citizen from leaving, as long as they have permission to enter another country. Even if the person is in prison or debt, they can always leave with just themselves to another country willing to take them. If all nations agreed to that, we could stop worrying about most other human rights abuses, and country governance becomes more of a free market…

> Countries would have an incentive to treat their people well, or see a mass exodus

Only the ones with options to leave. That is, people with money or skills.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#333

Post by emptyfile » Tue, May 25, 2021, 2:37 PM UTC

Aeolun wrote: post #235

I don’t understand how any of this stuff is even ok. If any random person had done this, the police would be after them to arrest them for kidnapping, but because it’s a nation state doing this the only thing that happens is closed airspace? I feel like there should be something we can do that wouldn’t be a slap on the wrist.

Boots on the ground as the Americans like to say.

Feel free to volunteer for the front line, most of us Europeans don't quite care that much.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#334

Post by shp0ngle » Tue, May 25, 2021, 2:42 PM UTC

nomercy400 wrote: post #91

I am surprised Hungary agreed. And Poland. The governments in those nations are not shy to touch on the freedoms of their population, and often disagree with the EU when the EU points these things out. Also Poland being directly next to Belarus will affect their relations.

Poland is nationalistic and Catholic, but also very anti-Russian. They are not friends with Lukashenko and Putin.

Hungary is kind of Putin's friend, yeah.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#335

Post by proxysna » Tue, May 25, 2021, 2:42 PM UTC

rich_sasha wrote: post #153

ceilingcorner wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Few regular Belarusians will feel the impact Why do you think this is the case? The regime isn't flying on a public airline. If you're a regular Belarusian trying to travel to/from the West, these actions are only making your life worse.

Hmm, I jumped to the conclusion that a lot of traffic in and out of Belarus will be via land. Not really sure why!

Travelling by land has gotten much more complicated over the last year. Before, to travel to Russia all i had to do is to get a ticket, there was no border between Russia and Belarus. Fell asleep on a train in Minsk, woke up in Moscow\Saint-Petersburg. Nice.

Now the only reason that i am able to travel to/through Russia to Belarus willy-nilly is because i have direct relatives that are now citizens\residents there. I have to have copies of their documents, like passport & document confirming that they are residents and are residing in Russia legally. During last year i had to forfeit a set of documents that would allow me to travel there[0]. Only reason why it worked was because border point was mostly analogue, and in general they were unable to verify that the doc was real. More of a loophole rather than straight hack but still.

Things are not great if you want to travel to\from EU by land. Since august-september 2020 "due to corona" you are allowed to travel "outside" once in 6 months over the land border [1]. There is no limitation on how people can _enter_ the country. Get a visa and you are good to go. Weird? yea. Dumb? hell yea. Think about that like it is an anemic attempt to stop people from leaving the country. Iirc before August there was no limits set by gov on how people can travel at all.

[0] https://russiamedtravel.ru/en/ [1] https://gpk.gov.by/covid-19/

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#336

Post by newdude116 » Tue, May 25, 2021, 2:43 PM UTC

jiofih wrote: post #327

newdude116 wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Besides, that Germany is extremely bad suited for re-newable energies (little sun, wind at the wrong places, little hydroelectric power): 1. Yes, population growth may stop 2. Your argument with population numbers is totally irrelevant. Economics growth, which is linked to energy consumption, won't stop. If is stops, our society will likely collapse. https://ourfiniteworld.com/2011/02/21/there-is-no-steady-sta... In…

So after your random-blog-post defense failed, you’re gonna completely drop the subject? I’d love to hear a proper response to the parent. Germany already produces enough renewable energy to sustain all residential use. There is no real physical limitation to achieving 100% renewables despite your “argument”. These are both very shallow articles. You need to find better sources if you’re gonna spout such claims, big…

"So after your random-blog-post defense failed" I don't see this. The original post was just extraordinary naive.

"Germany already produces enough renewable energy to sustain all residential use." Maybe, a short look at the numbers look inconclusive. Besides that Germany relies on its neighbors to stabilize the net (speak nuclear!), it is unclear for me what the numbers mean. "Residential" use. Including heating? Basically everybody heats with oil or gas in Germany. You would also to take into account production costs (energy) of solar and wind energy harvesting systems. Please also see: "The institute’s Energy Charts project does not include data on the amount of power the generating facilities consume themselves to operate, or the power German industry produces and consumes without it being fed into the public grid."

The is an incredibly stupid publication from an MIT professor, claiming that energy efficiency is increasing (we produce more with less), based on statistical data. I think he did not understand the numbers. The US, like Germany is just exporting energy hungry productions to China. Consequently the numbers show exactly this. I emailed him the data an ask for an explanation based on his thesis but he did not reply.

"There is no real physical limitation to achieving 100% renewables despite your “argument”.

Either you did not read, or did not understand the link I posted. For the sake of the argument, lets assume that Germany CAN produce 100% of the required energy by renewable energy. What you don't take into account (besides exporting energy hungry productions): German does not only have to produce 100% of the energy, she has also to compensate for the GROWTH of energy consumption. Please read the article again. And this is something that is likely physically impossible.

"These are both very shallow articles."

You are free to have your own opinion. I consider both authors extremely smart. Gail Tverberg is possibly one of the smartest people I know. Ugo Bardi (not quoted here) is also worth to read. https://www.amazon.com/Seneca-Effect-Collapse-Frontiers-Coll...

PS: I think it was this guy:

The planet has a fever, and the cure is more capitalism, a prominent researcher argues

https://www.technologyreview.com/2019/06/20/134845/the-plane...

I emailed him that I think energy hungry production is just outsourced to China and that the seemingly more efficient production is misleading. I asked him based on the following two articles, if he still believes in his thesis:

https://ourfiniteworld.com/2011/11/15/is-it-really-possible-...

http://www.declineoftheempire.com/2012/01/wealth-and-energy-...

But he did not reply.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#337

Post by hef19898 » Tue, May 25, 2021, 2:47 PM UTC

3np wrote: post #328

stjohnswarts wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think Russia would risk having their planes banned all through Europe to give a two bit dictator a reporter?

You think EU would give Russia the same treatment as Belarus?

Good question. Who knows, all I know is that it is time to really de-escalate relations between the big power blocks. At the same time Western democracies have to put limits on what totalitarian regimes, true and wannabe ones, are allowed to get away with. These things seem to be mutually exclusive so. I always thought the Putin is the most dangerous and cunning leader the world currently has. I also thought that this cunning would prevent him from doing anything stupid. Not so sure anymore about the last bit anymore, given with what he got away with so far.

Don't ask me what Western powers should do so. Given the loss in soft power in the last decade, throwing out human rights by the EU during the refugee crisis and ever since, the new alliance between Israel and Saudi Arabia, Trumps foreign policy, options seem to be limited.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#338

Post by La1n » Tue, May 25, 2021, 2:52 PM UTC

Aeolun wrote: post #235

I don’t understand how any of this stuff is even ok. If any random person had done this, the police would be after them to arrest them for kidnapping, but because it’s a nation state doing this the only thing that happens is closed airspace? I feel like there should be something we can do that wouldn’t be a slap on the wrist.

>but because it’s a nation state doing this the only thing that happens is closed airspace?

I am not going into specifics so not to derail the topic, however there are countries that kidnap people and consistently get away with it. It's all about power and alliances.

So don't compare this to a random person, but to other countries.

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#339

Post by xendo » Tue, May 25, 2021, 2:54 PM UTC

petre wrote: post #223

mcky wrote: post #145

Worth noting in all of this that Belarus recently closed their land borders to citizens [1], under the guise of COVID, but in reality to stop people leaving. The only way out was flying from Minsk, which is now even less of an option if there are no flights to the EU. As others have said these sanctions will likely do more to harm the repressed citizens of the regime than Lukashenko [1] https://www.bnt.eu/cs/zpravy/p…

They could still fly to Russia or Ukraine and then cross the land border into an EU country. Maybe Ukraine would follow suit though, they can benefit from better relations with the EU.

Ukraine is also planning to ban flights to and from Belarus: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/24/world/europe/belarus-flig...

Re: EU bans Belarusian airlines from European skies

#340

Post by hef19898 » Tue, May 25, 2021, 2:54 PM UTC

ForHackernews wrote: post #214

axiosgunnar wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does Germamy willingly accept so many then? Genuinely curious

Either for humanitarian reasons, or because Germany has an ageing population and desperately needs young workers to support its welfare state.

It is one. The majority of migrants, qualified or not, have a hard time getting work permits. Finding work, low paid but paid, isn't the main challenge. Doesn't do any good if you aren't allowed to take that work so.

Also, our social systems are doing well. Thanks for worrying.